Help Deciding on the Pre-Amp

[mikeyhd]

Hello,

I'm new here, and I need some help

Basically I have a NAD M25 as an amplifier, so the logical step would be a NAD M15HD as a preamp. But by shopping a bit I was given those choice:

1. Integra DHC-80.2

Pros: 3D HDMI, USB for iPod and Firmware Upgrade, Internet Radio, 9.2 Speakers output, Neural Technology, XLR Balanced Output

Cons: Sound is not refined as the NAD or anthem, and I haven't seen any reference on whether it will upsample the PCM sound to 192khz.

2. NAD M15HD

Pros: Great sound (more musical to the others), Modular Design, can upgrade eas, Can upsample PCM sound to 192khz

Cons: No XLR Balance Output, Reliability a Concern, no 3D HDMI (but it will be available soon), have only 4 HDMI input, Only 7.1 speakers output, no Network nor USB

3. Anthem D2v

Pros: ARC system which is much better than audyssey that is used by the two others, sound is very detailled (good for movies, but for music NAD is better), XLR balance output, Can upsample PCM sound to 192khz

Cons: 7.1 Speakers Output, no 3D HDMI (but it will be available soon), The most expensive preamp, and trade-in is not given either, for music I prefer NAD, not modular design, no Network nor USB

Can the expert chime on some advise? What would be my best choice?

Thanks

 

[Beatmatcher247]

I'm in the same boat. Let me know what you come up with.

Running a Parasound New Classic 5250V.2 with my yet to be determined preamp. I've been told by someone with pretty extensive preamp and receiver knowledge that the Anthem D2V has some great sound quality for music, but it's getting to be a rather dated unit for the price. Not sure what exactly dated is referring to: the lack of 3-d HDMI or its abilities to process the latest surround sound formats? I'll post later when I get some clarification on him for the D2V because I was looking at this unit as well.

I'm a novice myself with this stuff. Is XLR inputs/outputs the preferred way to hook up your seperates up to each other?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If you are into Room Correction EQ, then get the system with ARC.

If you don't care about Room Correction EQ, then any pre-pro will fine since they all sound the same in DIRECT MODE.

 

[mikeyhd]

The way I understood is XLR is not needed if the distance between amp and preamp is short

@AcuDefTechGuy: the others 2 have audyssey pro, is that as good as the ARC from anthem?


thx

 

[sharkman]

The ARC is very well regarded, but one might be concerned about the price tag. I've never heard it, but the Audyssey I have is pretty decent, so the Pro version would be no slouch. In a few years whatever you buy today will be outdated. If it's important to keep up with the latest improvements/features, then buying new Anthems every 5 or so years is pretty costly, and they don't exactly keep up with the latest tech anyway. While a Integra or Onkyo Pro are around 2000, and could get cheaper still. Just a thought.

Yes, XLR's advantages are for longer runs.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The way I understood is XLR is not needed if the distance between amp and preamp is short

@AcuDefTechGuy: the others 2 have audyssey pro, is that as good as the ARC from anthem?


thx

I doubt if there is even a study comparing Audyssey Pro vs. ARC.

It's anybody's educated guess.

People who use Audyssey Pro will say it is better, and people who use ARC will say it is better.

Some balanced systems have slightly better spec than unbalanced, but you won't be able to hear the difference.

Except for the Denon AVP-A1, I can't even think of another FULLY BALANCED pre-pro anyway. The flagship Anthem pre-pro is not fully balanced either.

 

[mikeyhd]

A Complementary of information on NAD M15HD (Just got a call from a NAD Rep):

For the 3D, they will replace the current HDMI card which has 1 OUT 4 IN, with a card which has 2 OUT, 3 IN, and later on they will sacrifice/revamp the composite card which will have another 3 HDMI IN to make 2 OUT and 6 HDMI IN.

 

[adk highlander]

While I like the fact they will offer the update, what is the cost going to be? As much as the NAD costs I would start thinking about the Integra or Anthem if you are sure you want to spend that much.

Have you compared the Integra and NAD on the same systems? If you are using digital sources I don't think you are loosing any sound quality and I'd be really surprised if there is a difference in analog performance.

 

[mikeyhd]

I live in Canada, so those is the Canadian Price:

1. Integra DHC-80.2 = $2560
2. NAD M15HD + Free Upgrade = $4500
3. Anthem D2v = $6500 (got a super deal), but the my rep said the D3v would be out in 18-24 month range and the upgrade would be $4000, so the anthem is pretty expensive
4. Anthem AVM50v = $4600 which is a newer model, which would hold longer

But then I saw some post on AVforums that said the DHC 9.8 (which is a predecessor of DHC-80.2) sound as good as the D2, which I have a hard time to believe, to me it's impossible.

If I was sure that the Integra DHC-80.2 sound as good as the D2 then it would be a no brainer, but I'm not really sure.

For nad, I have a feeling they read the end of line with the M15HD, when you save to sacrifice some part to put in others parts, well to me they need to redesign.

It's really hard to decide, as of now I would said the AVM50v vs Integra DHC-80.2

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

But then I saw some post on AVforums that said the DHC 9.8 (which is a predecessor of DHC-80.2) sound as good as the D2, which I have a hard time to believe, to me it's impossible.

http://www.hometheater.com/content/anthem-statement-d2-surround-processor-and-statement-p5-amplifier-ht-labs-measures

Anthem D2:

Analog frequency response in Direct mode:
–0.05 dB at 10 Hz; –0.01 dB at 20 Hz
–0.09 dB at 20 kHz; –0.59 dB at 50 kHz

Response from the multichannel input to the main output measures –0.06 dB at 10 Hz, –0.01 dB at 20 Hz, –0.10 dB at 20 kHz, and –0.58 dB at 50 kHz. The analog THD+N is less than 0.019% at 1 kHz with a 100-millivolt input and the volume control set to 0. Crosstalk with a 100-mV input was –96.23 dB left to right and –88.66 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with a 100-mV input from 10 Hz to 24 kHz with "A" weighting was –123.67 dBrA.—MJP




The Integra DH-C-80.1:

http://www.hometheater.com/content/integra-dhc-801-surround-processor-ht-labs-measures

Analog frequency response in Direct mode:
–0.05 dB at 10 Hz
+0.00 dB at 20 Hz
–0.01 dB at 20 kHz
–0.04 dB at 50 kHz

Response from the multichannel input to the main output measures –0.05 dB at 10 Hz, –0.01 dB at 20 Hz, –0.01 dB at 20 kHz, and –0.04 dB at 50 kHz. The analog THD+N is less than 0.025 percent at 1 kHz with a 100-millivolt input and the volume control set to +2.5. Crosstalk with a 100-mV input was –93.09 dB left to right and –91.33 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with a 100-mV input from 10 Hz to 24 kHz with “A” weighting was –121.00 dBrA.—MJP

The Integra has better Frequency Response and Crosstalk, while the Anthem has better SNR and THD.

But we are talking about INAUDIBLE differences here, so why is it hard to believe that the Integra sounds like the Anthem?

 

[jostenmeat]

I doubt if there is even a study comparing Audyssey Pro vs. ARC.

There are some AVSers who have used both, I believe Kal Rubinson and BobL may be among those people. You can ask them I suppose.

I don't understand some of the assumptions going on here. If I was to assume anything at all, I'd assume that Audyssey would be superior as a dedicated stand alone company that is dedicated to such technology. ARC stands for Anthem Room Correction, and this tech exists on a much smaller scale (read: smaller economy of scale).

Regardless of the above nonsense, EVERYONE will tell you to fix the room FIRST. These auto routines are the final tweak, or maybe at best the penultimate tweak.

I also don't understand why it's impossible to believe the Integra can sound as good as the Anthem.

IF* the Anthem sounds better than the Integra, I bet it would likely happen in the case of analog connections. For digital/HDMI, I just highly doubt it, check that, I extremely doubt it.

Even after the purchase of the Audyssey Pro kit, you still have somewhere between $1500 and $3500 in the pocket. So, as long as the speakers are top notch, the subs are top notch, the room is properly designed and or treated with the proper types and placements of absorbers, diffusers, and what not, then please feel free to splurge.

 

[mikeyhd]

My personnal option why I said it's hard to believe because if a 2K system is as good as the 6K system, then people just buy the 2K system, no need for the 6K then.

The 6K system must offer somethings more than 2K .....

But then you guys just solve the isuue, i'm going with the integra since the Anthem does not offer anything more than the integra in term of sound because the others features, anthem offer less than integra

 

[adk highlander]

The 6K system must offer somethings more than 2K .....

It does: A much lighter wallet.

Seriously you need to listen to these before you buy. If you can hear a difference buy the one you like best. If you cannot, save the money and buy a much better set of speakers.

 

[jostenmeat]

My personnal option why I said it's hard to believe because if a 2K system is as good as the 6K system, then people just buy the 2K system, no need for the 6K then.

The 6K system must offer somethings more than 2K .....

Ok, I can accept this point of view, and any man that considers himself manly probably enjoys overbuilt items. Are you planning on using the video features of the Anthem, such as the gamma control? (Not that I still don't think buying an outboard video processor is still a better value.) How many, if any at all, analog connections are you planning on using? (Do you have a need for a superior analog section, and is that need worth $3500 to you, and are your speakers resolving enough that you can possibly hear this difference?)

I have a really sick HT myself, excellent light control, double digit acoustic panels, multi row, and I use a $600 refurbed receiver as my pre/pro, and it uses MultEQ XT. (TLS Guy just groaned out loud.) I also use a Panasonic BDP that prolly cost barely over $100. This expensive pre/pro thing to me, it at times reminds me of misdirected consumers that look to buy a $500-1000 Oppo, even if they have no chance of enjoying the measurably superior scaling algorithms for DVD video on their 50" flat panel, and that they may not even use any analog connections whatsoever. They just assume that it will be superior for their needs simply because it costs 10x as much. For my own needs, I am positive that my $100 player will look every bit as good as the $1000 Oppo on my 126" screen (since DVD is not allowed in my rig). If I actually had this $900 right now in disposable income (I don't), I'd rather buy an outboard CMS with a colorimeter, for an undeniably better value in terms of video improvement. So in your case, I'd take a harder look at your speakers and room treatments, for instance.

 

[mikeyhd]

It does: A much lighter wallet.

Seriously you need to listen to these before you buy. If you can hear a difference buy the one you like best. If you cannot, save the money and buy a much better set of speakers.

I have listen to both, the dealers gave me both for a home trail over the last week, for my wife she's said it's the same.

But I can "feel" in movies the Anthem is better refined in sound detail, but maybe it's just an $6K illusion, that why I start this thread.

Base on the discussion, if I want a system for cinema I would get the integra, but if I use it more for music than I would get the NAD (but haven't decided what the main usage).

I also test drive the NAD and it like it better for music, but just a personal opinion.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I don't understand some of the assumptions going on here. If I was to assume anything at all, I'd assume that Audyssey would be superior as a dedicated stand alone company that is dedicated to such technology. ARC stands for Anthem Room Correction, and this tech exists on a much smaller scale (read: smaller economy of scale).

I agree.

But like I said, those who own pre-pros with ARC will think that ARC is better than Audyssey.

To me, if your room is so screwed up to begin with, nothing is going to help.

I don't believe in Audyssey or ARC or any EQ period.

If the room is messed up, fix it.

Try out different speaker placements if necessary.

If your speakers don't sound great after that, buy other speakers that sound great.

 

[mikeyhd]

Ok, I can accept this point of view, and any man that considers himself manly probably enjoys overbuilt items. Are you planning on using the video features of the Anthem, such as the gamma control? (Not that I still don't think buying an outboard video processor is still a better value.) How many, if any at all, analog connections are you planning on using? (Do you have a need for a superior analog section, and is that need worth $3500 to you, and are your speakers resolving enough that you can possibly hear this difference?)

I have a really sick HT myself, excellent light control, double digit acoustic panels, multi row, and I use a $600 refurbed receiver as my pre/pro, and it uses MultEQ XT. (TLS Guy just groaned out loud.) I also use a Panasonic BDP that prolly cost barely over $100. This expensive pre/pro thing to me, it at times reminds me of misdirected consumers that look to buy a $500-1000 Oppo, even if they have no chance of enjoying the measurably superior scaling algorithms for DVD video on their 50" flat panel, and that they may not even use any analog connections whatsoever. They just assume that it will be superior for their needs simply because it costs 10x as much. For my own needs, I am positive that my $100 player will look every bit as good as the $1000 Oppo on my 126" screen (since DVD is not allowed in my rig). If I actually had this $900 right now in disposable income (I don't), I'd rather buy an outboard CMS with a colorimeter, for an undeniably better value in terms of video improvement. So in your case, I'd take a harder look at your speakers and room treatments, for instance.

I have a NAD M25 amp which I like it really much, same as for speakers I have Monitor Audio Silver Series those are not top of the line but it sound good to my ears and I love it.

I use almost HDMI connection except for the SACD players (which is multichannel) and one CD (analog), but those are not important to me.

 

[jostenmeat]

I have a NAD M25 amp which I like it really much, same as for speakers I have Monitor Audio Silver Series.

I use almost HDMI connection except for the SACD players (which is multichannel) and one CD (analog), but those are not important to me

I like the MA Silvers fine enough, but with all due respect and honesty, you should be taking this very fine budget right into your speaker upgrade. After you sell the Silvers (shouldn't be too hard as they're relatively popular), you can probably obtain a truly large upgrade.

The very highest value with speakers of course is DIY, but then there are kits that can make it much easier for us. I for one am curious about an impending "flatpack" kit for either Holtz Statements or Mini Statements. If willing to go full DIY, the ER18 as featured here in the DIY subforum can be made for less than $600 a pair, and the closest prebuilt relative by the same designers costs $4200.

 

[sterling shoote]

Gee, I thought the $1700.00 I paid 9 years ago for a Sony TA-E9000ES was too much, back then. Now I'm thinking I'm glad it still works. I can't afford any of the products on the market today mentioned here.

 

[PENG]

But we are talking about INAUDIBLE differences here, so why is it hard to believe that the Integra sounds like the Anthem?

No matter how hard we try telling people to focus on the features set they need, and the look they prefer, instead of going with the hearsays things about what sounds warm, bright, thin etc., they continue to believe what they were led to believe in the first place. I guess it is a psychological thing that we would not know how to change.

I think it is a real shame that so many people have been misled to believe those claims that are mostly originated from long time ago. Electronics nowadays are no rocket science. It is a mature technology that you would think most manufacturers, meaning Denon, Yamaha, Pioneer, Onkyo, Marantz, NAD, Anthem and others knows how to make pre-pro/amps that offer flat 20 to 20,000 Hz, decent damping factor, low THD, IMD at below 0.1% at rated output. That leaves cross talks, S/N, ability to drive low impedance loads to consider. I have to give the Europeans some credit for being more facts based, seemingly more objective and less influenced by hearsay. For instance, professional reviews done by some UK magazines routinely rank Certain Sony AVR among their top picks.

No doubt the Anthem referenced here has great specs, though for a high price. On the other hand their newly launched $2,000 AVR has received HTM top pick status last month and it has cross talks in the mid 70's dB. With that kind of lab verified CT specs, I can guarantee you can hear the bleed through from one channel to the other if you would do a simple experiment. Yet audiophiles/hearsay believers will be not be able to detect such cross talks but will tell you for sure how they hear more details, warmer sound, huge sound stage etc., just because it is an Anthem. To me, if money is no object, I would take the Anthem but it wouldn't be for better audio/video quality.