Help Choosing an amplifier

[gimpinchair]

Taken literally it adds slam to your sound.

fmw places high importance on subwoofers for overall sound. He is neither right or wrong since it's a subjective opinion. I know people who don't like bass at all (they are few and far between) but I place a higher significance on soundstage and midbass-highs accuracy.

Well true, it will add, but take away the speakers from the equation and you have close to nothing. Take the subwoofer away and you still have a lot of sound. But, yeah, it will add and I like a little extra bass when appropriate. So I gues a my question boils down to what size driver is necessary to add a little bass without mudding up the mids and sound stage.

 

[fmw]

Taken literally it adds slam to your sound.

fmw places high importance on subwoofers for overall sound. He is neither right or wrong since it's a subjective opinion. I know people who don't like bass at all (they are few and far between) but I place a higher significance on soundstage and midbass-highs accuracy (or overall pleasing sound in this range).

Subwoofer bass can be used subtly and improve the sound of virtually (because of the few and far between) any speaker system regardless of the preferences of the listener. It doesn't have to be slam at all. Think of it as low end support for the speakers. I would suggest that adding a subwoofer will improve the system more than the typical speaker upgrade.

I'm not sure how you define soundstage. I view it as the width of the sonic presentation.
That is adjustable by changing the distance between the speakers. It is also affected by room acoustics. It isn't something that is inherent in speaker design to any meaningful degree. It is possible for driver dispersion to affect it but moving the speakers would be far, far more effective.

 

[fmw]

Well true, it will add, but take away the speakers from the equation and you have close to nothing. Take the subwoofer away and you still have a lot of sound. But, yeah, it will add and I like a little extra bass when appropriate. So I gues a my question boils down to what size driver is necessary to add a little bass without mudding up the mids and sound stage.

The bigger the subwoofer the better in terms of sound quality and overall performance. How much support they provide to the speakers is adjustable and up to you.

 

[gimpinchair]

The bigger the subwoofer the better in terms of sound quality and overall performance. How much support they provide to the speakers is adjustable and up to you.

Alright. So where do you stand on driver size? Does size matter? Is spending more on a 10" better than spending half as much on a 12"er? And what about wattage. Also, considering this subwoofer will be on a hardwood floor, should I consider the direction the driver faces?

 

[Seth=L]

Subwoofer bass can be used subtly and improve the sound of virtually (because of the few and far between) any speaker system regardless of the preferences of the listener. It doesn't have to be slam at all. Think of it as low end support for the speakers. I would suggest that adding a subwoofer will improve the system more than the typical speaker upgrade.

I generally regard the purpose of a subwoofer to be two fold. One part fulfilling the full audible range, second part to add tactile reinforcement.

I'm not sure how you define soundstage.

Basically anything to do with stereo imaging, presentation width, depth, center stage, spatial performance.

I view it as the width of the sonic presentation. That is adjustable by changing the distance between the speakers.

Generally the closer the speakers are together the stronger the center stage, but at the sacrifice of spatial performance. Moving them further apart usually results in a weakened center stage.

It is also affected by room acoustics. It isn't something that is inherent in speaker design to any meaningful degree. It is possible for driver dispersion to affect it but moving the speakers would be far, far more effective.

Eh, I've had difference speakers in the same spot and some offer excellent center stage and/or spatial effects, others don't. I'd say speaker design plays a lion's share of how well it performs in this manor.

Perhaps it's just a difference of how I've understood soundstage to be defined compared to what you've understood the definition to be.

 

[fmw]

Basically anything to do with stereo imaging, presentation width, depth, center stage, spatial performance.

Imaging is locked into the recording by the mixing engineer using the pan and level controls. How the speakers reproduce that imaging can be a different matter but I don't view the speakers as an important part of imaging.

Generally the closer the speakers are together the stronger the center stage, but at the sacrifice of spatial performance. Moving them further apart usually results in a weakened center stage.

Yes except that I would describe that as adjustments in stereo separation.

Eh, I've had difference speakers in the same spot and some offer excellent center stage and/or spatial effects, others don't. I'd say speaker design plays a lion's share of how well it performs in this manor.

What you are describing is something I would describe as distortion of one sort or another. As an example, a peak or dip in frequency response or the impedance curve can cause one instrument to play louder relative to other instruments on one speaker than on another. That would make it seem closer. That doesn't make one speaker more accurate than another or to have "better imaging." It is simply a difference in one or more distortions. The imaging is what the mixing engineer intended and it is burned into the recording. How that intention is translated to listening room is a matter of the accuracy of the system. That is why I have a hard time ascribing imaging to speakers. To me it is just a level of inaccuracy. The speaker's distortions can do all kinds of things to the sound, as you know.

Perhaps it's just a difference of how I've understood soundstage to be defined compared to what you've understood the definition to be.

My definition is narrower than yours. Soundstage for me is just the width of the sound field. Imaging is the placement of sounds within the soundstage for me - left, right, near, far and so forth. For me the soundstage is adjustable but the imaging is not. That is why I don't like to combine them.

I'm not sure we disagree. I think we may have some different ways of saying things. Hope that explains my position better.

 

[fmw]

Alright. So where do you stand on driver size? Does size matter? Is spending more on a 10" better than spending half as much on a 12"er? And what about wattage. Also, considering this subwoofer will be on a hardwood floor, should I consider the direction the driver faces?

I have subs here in 10, 12 and 15". The bigger they get, the better they sound. Personally I wouldn't suggest anything smaller than 12". The power is less important than driver size. A sub used to support speakers for music doesn't need more than 100 watts. You may want to double that for one used in a basic home theater. People who listen at ear splitting volumes may want 500 watts or more. The direction of the driver isn't an issue. As long as you keep frequencies under 100hz away from the sub, it shouldn't be directional.

 

[gimpinchair]

Ok I pulled the trigger on the ZampV.3. So I'll let you know how it sounds. Hopefully I'll have my acoustic panels up soon as wel. Thanks to all who weighed in, it was greatly appreciated.

 

[PENG]

Ok I pulled the trigger on the ZampV.3. So I'll let you know how it sounds. Hopefully I'll have my acoustic panels up soon as wel. Thanks to all who weighed in, it was greatly appreciated.

Sorry it is a little late to ask but I ask anyway, does the "B" stock amp comes with the Parasound warranty?
I know the speakers will be on the desk in our bedroom but how far are you sitting?

I am sure the 45W amp is much more than enough than what you need, I just want to figure out how much reserve you have left.

 

[gimpinchair]

Sorry it is a little late to ask but I ask anyway, does the "B" stock amp comes with the Parasound warranty?
I know the speakers will be on the desk in our bedroom but how far are you sitting?

I am sure the 45W amp is much more than enough than what you need, I just want to figure out how much reserve you have left.

They have the full waranty. I think 45W will enough. But to answer your question, about 3.5'. But, because of my disability I sometimes find myself in bed for a period of time, and that puts me back another 10'.

 

[PENG]

They have the full waranty. I think 45W will enough. But to answer your question, about 3.5'. But, because of my disability I sometimes find myself in bed for a period of time, and that puts me back another 10'.

Thanks, that's plenty for 3.5', but a sub will definitely make an impact especially at 10'.

 

[gimpinchair]

Just thought I'd update all you helpfull guys. I've had my Parasound ZampV.3 for over a week and the sound is awesome. Plenty of power. I've even been asked to lower the volume. That's always a good sign. I've got a Wharfedale Diamond 10sx arriving today; couldn't get anything bigger. Hopefully it will have enough punch, it was only $150.

Again, thanks for the help. I may be back with subwoofer setup questions.

 

[Seth=L]

Just thought I'd update all you helpfull guys. I've had my Parasound ZampV.3 for over a week and the sound is awesome. Plenty of power. I've even been asked to lower the volume. That's always a good sign. I've got a Wharfedale Diamond 10sx arriving today; couldn't get anything bigger. Hopefully it will have enough punch, it was only $150.

Again, thanks for the help. I may be back with subwoofer setup questions.

Appears to be a promising setup, enjoy.

 

[gimpinchair]

Appears to be a promising setup, enjoy.

I could use a little help with the crossover settings? It"s my understanding that the crossover should be set to the lowest frequency level of the mains, which in my case is 53Hz?

Typical In-Room Frequency Response 53Hz - 20kHz +/- 3dB
In-Room Sensitivity 91dB @ 1 watt / 1 meter
Frequency Response (Anechoic) 58Hz - 22kHz +/- 3dB

However, and this is where my confusion starts, the subwoofer manual states:

The higher settings are for use with small bookshelf loudspeakers

So, Ok, where would the high settings begin for a frequency response from 35Hz - 85Hz on the subwoofers crossover dial?

 

[Seth=L]

I could use a little help with the crossover settings? It"s my understanding that the crossover should be set to the lowest frequency level of the mains, which in my case is 53Hz?

Typical In-Room Frequency Response 53Hz - 20kHz +/- 3dB
In-Room Sensitivity 91dB @ 1 watt / 1 meter
Frequency Response (Anechoic) 58Hz - 22kHz +/- 3dB

However, and this is where my confusion starts, the subwoofer manual states:

The higher settings are for use with small bookshelf loudspeakers

So, Ok, where would the high settings begin for a frequency response from 35Hz - 85Hz on the subwoofers crossover dial?

85Hz would be highest, 35Hz the lowest. Usually you want to blend your mains at about 10Hz above their low frequency roll-off specification. So if the speaker states it has an FR of 50Hz-20kHz +/- 3dB then you would set the crossover at 60Hz. This convention usually applies with using the bass management of a receiver which effectively filters the lowest frequencies from your main speakers so the subwoofer and speakers are not attempting to play the same frequencies. You may have to tinker with the crossover on your subwoofer to get it right.

Also keep in mind that many subwoofers despite having markings on their crossover dial that would seem to indicate finite frequencies that more often than not it's almost arbitrary and the numbers don't coincide with the subwoofer will actually do. Your best bet is to get an SPL meter and run some test tones. The cheapest way to do this is with a smart phone as there are SPL meter apps available for them. It may not give you the most accurate readings, but it will give you a head start on getting an idea of where your nulls and humps are.

 

[gimpinchair]

85Hz would be highest, 35Hz the lowest. Usually you want to blend your mains at about 10Hz above their low frequency roll-off specification. So if the speaker states it has an FR of 50Hz-20kHz +/- 3dB then you would set the crossover at 60Hz. This convention usually applies with using the bass management of a receiver which effectively filters the lowest frequencies from your main speakers so the subwoofer and speakers are not attempting to play the same frequencies. You may have to tinker with the crossover on your subwoofer to get it right.

Also keep in mind that many subwoofers despite having markings on their crossover dial that would seem to indicate finite frequencies that more often than not it's almost arbitrary and the numbers don't coincide with the subwoofer will actually do. Your best bet is to get an SPL meter and run some test tones. The cheapest way to do this is with a smart phone as there are SPL meter apps available for them. It may not give you the most accurate readings, but it will give you a head start on getting an idea of where your nulls and humps are.

Ok, that makes good sense, specially your point concerning the subwoofer's crossover dial. Although, the dial appears to have discrete points of 10Hz from 35 to 85Hz. So I'll start at 65Hz,or maybe 55Hz.

Thanks again for your input.

Sorry, one more thing. When using a spl meter what should I play through the sw and at what volume?

 

[gimpinchair]

Bump

 

[fmw]

A test tone such as pink noise or a sine wave at a given frequency at any level you want. The purpose of the meter is to measure that level.