Help Blending Sub with Full Towers

[Sounds Good]

I just picked up a Outlaw LFM 1 EX, I followed the AVSForum Audyssey guide to adjust everything...

My question is, in the guide it recommends setting speakers to small and sub xover to 120...

Instead, I would like to adjust it so my towers provide highs and mid bass and the sub everything below whatever midbass would be considered...

what settings should I use... I get a little confused when adjusting xover points...

Thanks Everyone...

On a side note I notice Audyssey set my sub trim to -9 where my mains are +1 Is there any tweaking to be done there too?

 

[j_garcia]

The first question is: how do you have it hooked up? Second question is how low do your mains actually go? Unless they go to mid 30s or so, you should be setting them to small. Your receiver handles the x-over and most likley what the guide means is to set the sub to the highest it will go so it doesn't combine with the receiver's setting, which it will if you don't have a "bypass" mode on the sub.

The sub's x-over point should be adjusted in the receiver. If your receiver doesn't have this adjustment (I think it does), then obviously you just have to use it as is; most are 80Hz when they are fixed these days.

If it set it to -9dB then you potentially have the sub's level set to high. Drop it down a bit and run it again. It shouldn't be cutting it that much IMO.

 

[sholling]

If towers are the STS-02 the FR is 60Hz - 18kHz ± 6dB. My TX-NR906 is very similar to your TX-SR876, now assuming you are running the speakers directly from the Onkyo L&R front speaker outputs (and not through the sub) and the sub from the subwoofer-out jack you will want to set the crossover on the sub to "bypass" (or as high as possible) and then run Audyssey. Audyssey will will set the receiver's crossover and volume levels to blend the sub with the mains. Once you've done that then you can go into the Onkyo's setup and adjust the receiver's crossover to 80hz for the mains. Leave the crossover on the sub bypassed or way up high.

From outlaw's specs: "Crossover Frequency: 30Hz to 180Hz and Bypass."

 

[Sounds Good]

If towers are the STS-02 the FR is 60Hz - 18kHz ± 6dB.

He is correct..

I have it hooked up to the Sub Out. The Subs Xover is turned off, the Volume level is set on about "4", 0' phase.

It just seems unnatural to set my towers to small... But I think I understand why, they only go down to 60Hz.

It sounds like I did everything correctly, Ill switch my speaker settings to small, and set the sub freq to 120Hz.

I watched Toy Story 3 last night, It sounded really great with the settings i have now (speakers set to large) except during explosions and other "bass intensive" parts, I could hear the towers working to hard... I am guessing wan i switch them to small it will fix that...


Thanks guys

 

[bikemig]

He is correct..

I have it hooked up to the Sub Out. The Subs Xover is turned off, the Volume level is set on about "4", 0' phase.

It just seems unnatural to set my towers to small... But I think I understand why, they only go down to 60Hz.

It sounds like I did everything correctly, Ill switch my speaker settings to small, and set the sub freq to 120Hz.

I watched Toy Story 3 last night, It sounded really great with the settings i have now (speakers set to large) except during explosions and other "bass intensive" parts, I could hear the towers working to hard... I am guessing wan i switch them to small it will fix that...


Thanks guys

I have my towers set to small for movies and the like but I set them to large for music. I also have the sub turned off for music. I set the crossover for movies at 60 HZ so that the full range speakers do as much of the work as possible and that is working very well in my system. That said, there is some great advice on blending speakers with a sub on this thread that I'll have to try out.

 

[Sounds Good]

What made me think to ask was an article I recently read about subwoofer integration and how some people just crank it up and wonder why its so boomy. The author of the article mentioned that sometime what we need is more midbass and less subwoofer.

That got me thinking that I would like to leave my towers set for full range to handle highs and mids and let the sub do the low end grunt.

But that contradicts what the audyseey guide recommends. And i was just curious what people recommend and what they have tried that works.

I don't doubt that speaker and receiver manufactures know what they are talking about when they suggest settings. But I know there are people out there that have a problem accepting the norm and always try tweaking it make it better, I am one of thoes people....

 

[j_garcia]

General guidelines will always tell you something like that because they are intended for the average user. Not only are they generic, they don't cover all situations.

I agree with setting the mains to large for music, and often will also have the sub off, but most receivers have a "direct" mode that bypasses bass management and does this for you without having to mess with any speaker settings.

If your towers only go to 60Hz, then I would set them to small and an 80Hz x-over. My A/V-2s are -3dB at 55Hz and I use an 80Hz x-over and it blends very well.

If you set the mains to large, you need to get an SPL meter to properly manually adjust the level of the sub to get the best blend.

 

[Sounds Good]

Ok, so set the mains to small, and do I adjust the xover point on the mains to 80Hz? Or the sub to 80?

 

[sholling]

Ok, so set the mains to small, and do I adjust the xover point on the mains to 80Hz? Or the sub to 80?

Set the receiver's crossover to 80hz and bypass the crossover on the sub because you don't need it. I wouldn't plan on using them without a subwoofer even for music. You have speakers designed by a subwoofer company to work best with a subwoofer (-6db at 60hz) and you have a good subwoofer.

 

[bikemig]

General guidelines will always tell you something like that because they are intended for the average user. Not only are they generic, they don't cover all situations.

I agree with setting the mains to large for music, and often will also have the sub off, but most receivers have a "direct" mode that bypasses bass management and does this for you without having to mess with any speaker settings.

If your towers only go to 60Hz, then I would set them to small and an 80Hz x-over. My A/V-2s are -3dB at 55Hz and I use an 80Hz x-over and it blends very well.

If you set the mains to large, you need to get an SPL meter to properly manually adjust the level of the sub to get the best blend.

Doesn't this depend on the source? Most AV receivers do the bass management via some sort of DSP so you need to deal with bass management if you are letting the receiver do any digital to analog conversion. I listen to music via a SB touch so I let it do the D to A conversion and then do a bypass, as you suggest, so the sub doesn't come into the picture. But when I play music via my computer via a digital connection, then I have to tweak the settings so the sub doesn't kick in.

 

[Sounds Good]

Yeah its already bypassed, I think what I ment was how do I set the mains AND sub, I think my onkyo will let me adjust the xover on all speakers.

 

[sholling]

The 876 will allow you to set the crossover on each pair but the only one that I would worry about changing is the mains, plus I don't know what surrounds you have. The SBS-02 bookshelves and SCS-02 center are rated to 58-22khz -6db. which would suggest an 80hz crossover and the SSS-02: 100-12khz -6db which suggests 100-120hz for the crossover.

 

[j_garcia]

Doesn't this depend on the source? Most AV receivers do the bass management via some sort of DSP so you need to deal with bass management if you are letting the receiver do any digital to analog conversion. I listen to music via a SB touch so I let it do the D to A conversion and then do a bypass, as you suggest, so the sub doesn't come into the picture. But when I play music via my computer via a digital connection, then I have to tweak the settings so the sub doesn't kick in.

Yes, that is correct. It isn't exactly the source so much as the signal. Obviously a 2ch source won't have a sub playing. A multichannel digital signal will get processed but the speaker settings are still ignored AFAIK (you will get multichannel including the sub, but the rest of the speakers will likely all be set to large). I generally listen to music in 2ch. Multichannel music I listen to via multichannel analog so bass management is already bypassed because the speaker settings are set at the source device.

Yeah its already bypassed, I think what I ment was how do I set the mains AND sub, I think my onkyo will let me adjust the xover on all speakers.

I set my brother's like that on his Yamaha because he has a smaller sub with towers and a very large room, but I generally don't recommend running the "BOTH" option (mains and sub playing bass), if that is what you are talking about. In your case, your mains don't quite cover low enough to run in "both" mode, so I would do it just as sholling listed.

 

[Sounds Good]

The 876 will allow you to set the crossover on each pair but the only one that I would worry about changing is the mains, plus I don't know what surrounds you have. The SBS-02 bookshelves and SCS-02 center are rated to 58-22khz -6db. which would suggest an 80hz crossover and the SSS-02: 100-12khz -6db which suggests 100-120hz for the crossover.

If the lowest my mains and center go is 60Hz +/- why not set the xover to 60Hz, why 80Hz? would the subwoofer be better at playing 60Hz-80Hz then the speaker?

I generally don't recommend running the "BOTH" option (mains and sub playing bass), if that is what you are talking about. In your case, your mains don't quite cover low enough to run in "both" mode, so I would do it just as sholling listed.

I see what your saying, I am not looking to play bass with both, but more use the towers to cover midbass rather then leave it up to the sub... although tonealy (is that a word?) it would probably be better for one speaker (ie the sub) to cover ALL bass (mid and sub)





Ill try setting main and center speakers to 80Hz and small size and rears to 120Hz, what was the recommended sub xover again? 120Hz? or do I use the same freq that I set the speakers to..



This convo is getting pretty deep... lol.. I also have a second question reguarding tone (bass/treb) setting for individual speakers... but lets wait on that one.. one thing at a time..

 

[Sounds Good]

I forgot to add,

surrounds are SSS-02 Bipoles 100Hz - 20kHz +/- 6 dB

 

[Sounds Good]

Ok, I set mains and center to 70Hz and surrounds to 100Hz, I set the sub to 80Hz It sounds pretty good.

I popped in U571 and watched the depth charge scene... It was going pretty low and sound good.. clear, crisp, I didn't notice my towers straining like it did during Toy Story 3 last night, I suspect I was maxing out the woofers on the towers when they were set to full range...

I also notice there is no large/small speaker setting. Do I have to rerun Audyseey?

 

[sholling]

If the lowest my mains and center go is 60Hz +/- why not set the xover to 60Hz, why 80Hz? would the subwoofer be better at playing 60Hz-80Hz then the speaker?

Part of the reason is the way that crossovers work. They are not a hard cut-over point between speaker and subwoofer. Instead the crossover creates a gentle sloping transition starting well below the crossover setting and continuing well above. Your speakers are -6db at 60hz which means that the bass is pretty weak at 60hz. 80hz would give you a nice cushion for the crossover to do it's thing. Second by crossing over at 80hz you'll ease some of the load on your receiver. Finally I wouldn't sell that sub short for sound quality.

Ok, I set mains and center to 70Hz and surrounds to 100Hz, I set the sub to 80Hz It sounds pretty good.

Do not use the crossover on the sub! Set it to "bypass" or up so high that it's out of the way.

Onkyo does not use the term "Large" or "Small", they use "full" or a crossover setting.

 

[j_garcia]

Part of the reason is the way that crossovers work. They are not a hard cut-over point between speaker and subwoofer. Instead the crossover creates a gentle sloping transition starting well below the crossover setting and continuing well above. Your speakers are -6db at 60hz which means that the bass is pretty weak at 60hz. 80hz would give you a nice cushion for the crossover to do it's thing. Second by crossing over at 80hz you'll ease some of the load on your receiver. Finally I wouldn't sell that sub short for sound quality.

To add to that, the slopes are different for the sub and the mains. The sub has a steeper slope, so it rolls off quicker as the frequency rises. That allows you to hear more of the speaker and less of the sub where the transition is; aka lower mid-bass. If we estimate that the crossover allows the speaker to play down 1 octave below 80hz, your speakers need to be able to cover to approximately 40Hz. With a 70Hz x-over, they'd need to still have some output at about 35Hz. That crossover will also combine with the natural roll off of your speakers, so with yours -6dB at 60, they will begin rolling off very quickly below that. I'd try it with an 80Hz x-over. You may not notice much difference though, because the speakers are already rolling off either way.

Do not use the crossover on the sub! Set it to "bypass" or up so high that it's out of the way.

Ditto

 

[Sounds Good]

Sorry guys I am getting my terminology mixed up. The sub crossover is bypassed, the low pass was set at 80Hz, but I have since bumped it up to its highest setting, 120Hz.


Should I have all 5 speakers set to 80Hz even though the rears only go down to 100Hz?




Thanks guys for all your help, this is great info!

 

[j_garcia]

Sorry guys I am getting my terminology mixed up. The sub crossover is bypassed, the low pass was set at 80Hz, but I have since bumped it up to its highest setting, 120Hz.

In bypass mode, that setting doesn't do anything so you are fine there.

Should I have all 5 speakers set to 80Hz even though the rears only go down to 100Hz?

No, the surrounds should be set to 100 or 120 based on that. Try them both and see if you notice a difference and leave it on the one you like best