Help a financial NOOB!

  • Thread starter Rock&Roll Ninja
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xboxweasel

xboxweasel

Full Audioholic
It's a simple idea that can be passed onto someone in a few hours. But no one is aware of the possibilities. I stumbled upon it thanks to a friend. I just wish it was 15 years earlier. I might not have a mortgage right now, or a nicer house. I try to be faithful. But sometimes I have to change my plan because I don't get the hours at work, or I owe too much for my liking.

I tried talking to friends of mine about saving. But they all say "Not right now. Maybe in a year or so I will start". Idiots. They have nothing started for their retirement.
 

Buckle-meister

Audioholic Field Marshall
BMXTRIX said:
You know, why not call some local investment places like Smith Barney and ask to setup an appointment with a Certified Financial Planner.
Absolutely. This was my first thought too. An independant financial advisor will almost certainly know more than you or I about where best to invest our money.

MDS said:
For all those that think a house is always a great investment. Consider this: If you borrow $200,000 at 6% and pay it per the terms over 30 years you will pay over $200,000 in interest (which is double+ the amount you borrowed).
Sorry, but I believe a house is always a good investment...from a certain point of view (refer to next quote/reply). Using the above example, say you rent said house for 30 years which amounts to $200,000, what've you got at the end of it? Squat. The house isn't yours and the spare $200,000 you'd have from not having paid any interest on a morgage won't be anything like enough to buy an equivalent house after 30 years worth of inflation.

MDS said:
A home is a place to live and in reality for most people is the biggest liability you will ever have - not necessarily the sure path to riches...
Not necessarily a path to riches, no, but certainly something tangible for your money; a home you can call your own and which over the long term will always increase in value.
 
H

Hans

Audioholic Intern
Hello,

This is a really good topic, maybe not in the right forum :)

After reading the posts, it is clear that people here seem to understand the benefits of saving for the old days. I mean, the evil bankers suck out all of our hard earned money right? Humm.

Well let me tell you, most of it is right, and conservatism is all good. Living debt free is indeed possible, but is it what you really want?

A concept to remember: Interest is the price to pay, the cost, to enjoy something now, rather than later. Now, rather than later.

I spent my early 20s in university, scrounging every penny here and there, and didnt enjoy those years at all. In later 20s, went back to university for my master, and those 2 years costed me more than the 5 first years together. Those were the 2 most wonderful years of my life, living alone in my pad, travelling a bit, good cognac, etc. I didn't go overboard, but lived well. All my good university stories come from those 2 years.

My rule is minor purchases, and luxury items are paid cash. But major purchases are financed. Doesn't make any sense to me to walk for a couple years before buying a car, sorry. (although thats what I did..., but I always had a motocycle....) Or play a crappy guitar for 10 years before getting a major rig. I mean, I'm pass 30 now, and my 20s are never coming back. And no, I don't regret visiting Europe with my buddies.

That was for spending. What about investing?
There is a concept in finance called: Financial leverage.

To really simplify thing consider two buddies. They both have 100K$ cash, and want to buy a rental property. Buddy A is dead afraid of debt, but not Buddy B. Remember this is a simplified model:

Buddy A buys a property 100K$ cash. He is debt free and has a revenu of X. Lets say 1K$. He now enjoys a extra 1K$ net worth per month.

Buddy B puts 25% down, (4x25K$) on 4 properties, he borrows the rest (4x75K$) from the evil banker. He now enjoys a extra 4K$, minus interests on debt, net worth per month. He still has to repay the principal of course, but it's in is net worth now.

Think about that concept really hard. Interest is the cost for enjoying something Now, instead of later. It goes for spending and investing. You have to draw the line as where and when is too much. You have to optimize your enjoyment of life.

I mean, it's been proven that living in an apartment for all your life instead of buying a home and investing the difference is better financially. But all those years in an apartment with noisy neighbors, old shaggy carpets, and white walls all around! For my entire life? Nop, not for me.

I'm working toward my target net worth, I have made investments in consequence, I continue to do so, and its going good.

I have lived like a cloistered monk in my early 20s, and for me, no, its not worth it. I enjoy myself now, with debts, within my means, to the maximum of my abilities.

There is no nobility in poverty anymore.

Btw, I'm a risk manager for a bank....

That's my .02$, and yes, I owe part of it....:(
 
Hans said:
There is a concept in finance called: Financial leverage.
That all sounds so wonderful until Buddies A and B both lose their jobs. You must be in the investment industry as this seems to be the standard thinking for that market. It's not "wrong", but it doesn't lead to financial peace and doesn't encourage good practices. This advice is for disciplined people - and that's not the common person. And even disciplined people can run into trouble.

Hans said:
Btw, I'm a risk manager for a bank....
Ah, I was right. lol.
 
N

Nick250

Audioholic Samurai
MDS said:
Sorry to bombard you all with this stuff, but I thought I would mention one simple rule that I think everyone should know (I like this stuff almost as much as I like audio). It is called the 'Rule of 72' (not to be confused with the rule of 72 that allows lenders to charge you the fully amortized cost of a loan even if you pay it off early - NEVER accept terms like that).

The Rule of 72 is a simple shorthand to calculate either the interest rate or the time required to double your money.

If you know your interest rate is 8% annually, it will take 72/8 = 9 years to double your money; likewise if you want to know what rate of return you need to earn to double your money in 9 years it is 72/9 = 8%.

For all those that think a house is always a great investment, consider this: If you borrow $200,000 at 6% and pay it per the terms over 30 years you will pay over $200,000 in interest (which is double+ the amount you borrowed). Using the rule of 72, we can calculate that the house has to appreciate 72/30 = 2.4% per year for you to BREAK EVEN. Over the long term (forget about the current housing bubble) homes appreciate roughly at the same rate as inflation, which tends to average 2.5% per year over the long term. So your stellar 'investment' may yield absolutely nothing over a 30 year term. Figure in property taxes, maintenance, et al and things look even worse.

A home is a place to live and in reality for most people is the biggest liability you will ever have - not necessarily the sure path to riches that the simpletons make it out to be. Food for thought from your local cynic that crunches the numbers instead of going along with the crowd. :)
Remember to factor in "rent" you would have to pay if you do not own your place. Rent will go up with inflation while your mortgage payment does not and there are tax advantages for the interest part of a mortgage, but then there is real estate taxes and higher insurance expenses with owning all. All that being said there are many variables and maybe one could make a reasonable argument about renting vs buying. I read one a few years back.

Nick
 
evilkat

evilkat

Senior Audioholic
I'm actually in the process of buying a house right now! This is welcome advice. I think overrall, this might be the right time to buy one...and I expect to stay there for 5 years or so. I think I can manage the payments without a roomate (although I'll be stretched awefully thin) and I will have to withdraw money from my mutual fund @ a penalty...but at least I won't be throwing away more than $12,000 a year on rent. On the other hand I'll be giving up on the roughly 8% interest I gained from the fund over this year.

With a roomie (I loath the idea), I think I might be able to afford the whole thing until Better Times come...and people are telling me a house is a very safe investment to make...

What do you guys think?
 
evilkat said:
What do you guys think?
I think that if you even remotely think you need a roomate to afford house paymants or to not be house poor then you should a) wait, or b) buy a smaller, less expensive house.
 
G

gnagel

Junior Audioholic
The marketeers have done a great job of convincing, must have everything now and the latest and greatest.
That they have. Of course, it's best to hold off on buying the latest and greatest until you can afford it.

Financial independence requires the discipline to have enough money invested. I would much rather have my money doing the working for me!
 
evilkat

evilkat

Senior Audioholic
Clint DeBoer said:
I think that if you even remotely think you need a roomate to afford house paymants or to not be house poor then you should a) wait, or b) buy a smaller, less expensive house.
No I won't need a roomate to afford house payments...but it would help out a lot if I did have one. I guess my biggest issue is throwing away $13,200 a year on rent. That seems like a ghastly amount.

I also don't want to buy a very cheap house because:

1. Locations usually suck and we all know how important location is supposed to be in real estate!

2. I want to be able to resell the house for a decent price in about 5 to 6 years time, should the need arise. By that time, I would save more than $66,000 on rent (since they seem to be increasing the rent by about 4-6% every year, where I live).

The way I want to approach it is that a roomate should be a bonus, but not a requirement to pay off the mortgage payment.
 
Rock&Roll Ninja

Rock&Roll Ninja

Audioholic Field Marshall
evilkat said:
2. I want to be able to resell the house for a decent price in about 5 to 6 years time, should the need arise. By that time, I would save more than $66,000 on rent (since they seem to be increasing the rent by about 4-6% every year, where I live).
I'd consider downsizing to a single-wide in a modular community. You will have no trouble selling it for a profit in the future, and they're certainly cheaper than buying a stick-built.

Its not like you plan on retireing in it or anything.
 
evilkat

evilkat

Senior Audioholic
Rock&Roll Ninja said:
I'd consider downsizing to a single-wide in a modular community. You will have no trouble selling it for a profit in the future, and they're certainly cheaper than buying a stick-built.

Its not like you plan on retireing in it or anything.

Well I've been thinking about this some more, and I am seriously having doubts about the home thing now. I'm a first-time home-buyer and I expect that I will stay with the house for about 5 yrs. or so. But if house values appreciate only by about 3% and all I can afford is a 10% down payment (and I would be stretched REALLY thin then) then basically at the end of 4/5 years, I would only just break-even, @ a 3% appreciation rate.

Now in Maryland, I think that's a conservative estimate for an appreciation rate...but I don't want to muck around with the money esp if I have to ask my rents to help me out on it a bit.

Perhaps it would be best to wait till I have more income available.
 
M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
Buckle-meister said:
Sorry, but I believe a house is always a good investment...from a certain point of view (refer to next quote/reply). Using the above example, say you rent said house for 30 years which amounts to $200,000, what've you got at the end of it? Squat. The house isn't yours and the spare $200,000 you'd have from not having paid any interest on a morgage won't be anything like enough to buy an equivalent house after 30 years worth of inflation.
I agree with your example so let me just clarify what I was getting at. Most people seem to be rather finanically illiterate and think if they paid $200K for their house and then sell it 30 years later for $400K, they made $200K when in reality their rate of return is zero if the house just appreciated at the rate of inflation (the 'norm'). Factor in property taxes and other costs and the return is less than zero.

In that scenario though they did 'save' $400K because when they do sell they get that cash back whereas had they rented for the entire 30 years (and not saved the money they would have paid for interest and property taxes in another account) they would end up with zero dollars and still be homeless.

So Yes buying a house is a good investment for more reasons than one - just not necessarily on a total % return basis as the simple advice you read makes it out to be.
 
Rock&Roll Ninja

Rock&Roll Ninja

Audioholic Field Marshall
OK, I've decided that mutual funds are the way to go, not individual stocks. Two more (slightly more difficult) questions:

1. The wife and I create a join Mutual Fund account, strictly for retirement. Are Mutual Funds broken into regular/Roth accounts like savings? (This question is for income tax purposes).

2. We plan on adopting a child early next year. If I start a Mutual Fund account for it (not sure if boy or girl yet), using the same $1000 down & $100/month plan, would it be wise to use a Roth or standard account, considering (s)he'll have no income for nearly 2 decades? Or would it be wiser to just create a "normal" account, in the chance (s)he'll want to use that money for a house or something before (s)he turns 65?

Now all I have to do is pay-off one of my credit cards and that will free up the $200/month I need to fund both of these accounts.
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
Rock&Roll Ninja said:
I'd consider downsizing to a single-wide in a modular community. You will have no trouble selling it for a profit in the future, and they're certainly cheaper than buying a stick-built.

Its not like you plan on retireing in it or anything.
Good luck on financing a single wide, most lenders will not touch them. Manufactured homes can be/are very difficult to finance these days. Manufactured homes do not appreciate well either. Turning a profit can be difficult in some instances.
 

Buckle-meister

Audioholic Field Marshall
MDS said:
I agree with your example so let me just clarify what I was getting at...
Got it. :)

Rock&Roll Ninja said:
Double Post.
Whose post was posted twice? Your own? If so, you can delete it by editing it (Go Advanced) then at the top there's an option button to Delete Message. :)
 
N

Nick250

Audioholic Samurai
Rock&Roll Ninja said:
OK, I've decided that mutual funds are the way to go, not individual stocks. Two more (slightly more difficult) questions:

1. The wife and I create a join Mutual Fund account, strictly for retirement. Are Mutual Funds broken into regular/Roth accounts like savings? (This question is for income tax purposes).
You can put just about anything you want in an IRA or Roth IRA. Any mutual fund, individual stocks, cash, T Bills, etc etc.

Rock&Roll Ninja said:
2. We plan on adopting a child early next year. If I start a Mutual Fund account for it (not sure if boy or girl yet), using the same $1000 down & $100/month plan, would it be wise to use a Roth or standard account, considering (s)he'll have no income for nearly 2 decades? Or would it be wiser to just create a "normal" account, in the chance (s)he'll want to use that money for a house or something before (s)he turns 65?

Now all I have to do is pay-off one of my credit cards and that will free up the $200/month I need to fund both of these accounts.
You have some serious financial decisions to make and I think the services of a FEE ONLY financial planer would be of great help putting together a solid long term plan.

Nick
 
Rock&Roll Ninja

Rock&Roll Ninja

Audioholic Field Marshall
What? The word of random anonymous strangers taken from a non-financial website aren't the best possible advice? :D
 
xboxweasel

xboxweasel

Full Audioholic
evilkat said:
I guess my biggest issue is throwing away $13,200 a year on rent. That seems like a ghastly amount.
Egads, think of all the speakers you could buy with that.
 
Rock&Roll Ninja

Rock&Roll Ninja

Audioholic Field Marshall
Or he could buy 2 whole pairs of Kardas super-premium $6500 interconnects.

Or half a Mustang GT.

Or 3.6 Ruby Tuesday's Triple-Prime hamburgers a day, for a year!

4 whole days with a ridiculously overpriced escort

A new Harley-Davidson NightRod

220 grams of pure Columbian cocaine.....
 

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