Hello guys !

[mtrycrafts]

Yes, I conduct a DBT test everytime I change cables.


Can you tell us about the procedures you are using? The number of trials for each pair, the number of correct guesses? Who has verified your results and protocol? Maybe Tom Nousaine would be interested to test the first person on the planet?

....
LOL.. I won't justify this with a response since you just told me above that no one to date has passed a DBT. If you believe this then you believe all cables sound the same. Please make up your mind before you respond.

That is correct, I did say that. And no, if you read what I said, you will not see 'all' cables sound the same. That is your interpretation of what is not stated. Actually, DBt does show that 24 ga is audibly different from 14ga. Try not to read what is not printed, then we won't have misunderstandings.

You are not that person to pass that DBT, it is just a claim, until you can demonstrate it in a credible manner. So, what I said stands. Just be sure not to compare 24ga and 14 ga, ok? 12ga and 16ga is comparable.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Mtry, I have no problem with you disagreeing with people. But the way you belittle them and tell them that any of their perceptions are completely wrong is very uncalled for. You could express the same idea in a different, more respectful way and get better results.

Oh kay, I will try to modify my expressions, thanks.

 

[buckyg4]

Yes, I conduct a DBT test everytime I change cables.


Can you tell us about the procedures you are using?
The number of trials for each pair, the number of correct guesses?

I use a small DOE as I don't have an unlimited amount of time. 2 sets of trials on different days with a random order. I have a CD that contains a couple of songs from each type of genre of music that I like (some are weighted differently as I like some types of music better). I measure a couple of sound characteristics (different for each genre) on a 1-5 basis. The data is not binary so there is no "correct guess". I do some basic statistical calculations on reproducibility to see if day to day was reproducible and see, via an ANOVA, which has the higher score and if it is significant.

Who has verified your results and protocol?

No one needs to verify my protocol. If you care this is a similar process that is used in every industry. In all honesty I can do half the amount of listening if I feel like it and make a valid conclusion. No one but myself can tell me what I hear as perception of audio quality is not a CONTINUOUS variable (this is the concept that you can't seem to grasp). I could say Coke and Pepsi taste the same and you can say they are completly different. Both people are correct and the only thing you can conclude is that some people believe the taste of coke and pepsi is different. No if I said the ingrediants of coke and pepsi are the same then I could be proved wrong as the amount of ingrediants is a CONTINUOUS variable.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Yes, I conduct a DBT test everytime I change cables.


Can you tell us about the procedures you are using?
The number of trials for each pair, the number of correct guesses?

I use a small DOE as I don't have an unlimited amount of time. 2 sets of trials on different days with a random order. I have a CD that contains a couple of songs from each type of genre of music that I like (some are weighted differently as I like some types of music better). I measure a couple of sound characteristics (different for each genre) on a 1-5 basis. The data is not binary so there is no "correct guess". I do some basic statistical calculations on reproducibility to see if day to day was reproducible and see, via an ANOVA, which has the higher score and if it is significant.

Who has verified your results and protocol?

No one needs to verify my protocol. If you care this is a similar process that is used in every industry. In all honesty I can do half the amount of listening if I feel like it and make a valid conclusion. No one but myself can tell me what I hear as perception of audio quality is not a CONTINUOUS variable (this is the concept that you can't seem to grasp). I could say Coke and Pepsi taste the same and you can say they are completly different. Both people are correct and the only thing you can conclude is that some people believe the taste of coke and pepsi is different. No if I said the ingrediants of coke and pepsi are the same then I could be proved wrong as the amount of ingrediants is a CONTINUOUS variable.

Oh, but we can test what you hear, to a statistically significant level. And, if your hearing is so variable, then what is the use of any testing? Zero use.

But, we still don't know the quality, quantity of trials, etc. Reproducibility.
Who is to say it was a true DBT? Enough trials. As I stated, no one to date has been able to differentiate comparable cable, no one. But, if you live around Berkley, MI, or Boston, the audio clubs there would love to meet the first person who is able to sonically differentiate cables.

 

[MDS]

No one but myself can tell me what I hear as perception of audio quality is not a CONTINUOUS variable

Now that I can agree with. I'm sure you realize that this fact actually makes it MORE difficult to reliably perceive any differences. Your perception of audio 'quality' can vary with your mood, temperature, ambient lighting, whether you are slightly under the weather or feeling in tip top shape, and on and on ad nauseum.

 

[buckyg4]

Now that I can agree with. I'm sure you realize that this fact actually makes it MORE difficult to reliably perceive any differences. Your perception of audio 'quality' can vary with your mood, temperature, ambient lighting, whether you are slightly under the weather or feeling in tip top shape, and on and on ad nauseum.

This is why when I test I do it on two different days and if the results are reproducible then i'm somewhat confident that everything else was equal. I actually have a good track record of being reproducible in a short time period. In fact I typically throw two of the same cable in during my comparison and >95% of the time I rate them the same. I believe that during this short time period of a couple of hours I can distinguish between the cables because all of the variables you mention are somewhat consistent. Now if we are talking about over time all of the things that you mention are applicible, plus I feel my general taste in sound changes over time. The type of sound that I liked 10 years ago is definetly different than today. In all reality just be happy with the components that you choose.

 

[jaxvon]

Oh, but we can test what you hear, to a statistically significant level. And, if your hearing is so variable, then what is the use of any testing? Zero use.

But, we still don't know the quality, quantity of trials, etc. Reproducibility.
Who is to say it was a true DBT? Enough trials. As I stated, no one to date has been able to differentiate comparable cable, no one. But, if you live around Berkley, MI, or Boston, the audio clubs there would love to meet the first person who is able to sonically differentiate cables.

I know that some people call me a gentleman here, and I appreciate that. But for a little bit, I need to step out of that mold.

Mtry, your input on this topic is of zero worth. Everyone has heard your banal comments, yet you never back them up. In fact, I can't remember the last post you made that wasn't a. Berating someone, b. Making broad statements about concepts you do not understand, or c. Reiterating what someone else has said.

You have completely lost my respect. Good day.

 

[buckyg4]

Oh, but we can test what you hear, to a statistically significant level.

How can you test what I hear? You would have me listen and I would give it a rating.. Hence what I just did. Or you could do an ABX test, but I personally don't feel that is the best test for this situation.

And, if your hearing is so variable, then what is the use of any testing? Zero use.

Everything in this world has variability, hence the reason on why statistics exist. The fact that there is variability means that you need to test.

But, we still don't know the quality,

Quality is not an attribute of a statistical test.

quantity of trials

I told you there were two trials.

, etc. Reproducibility.

The fact that I have multiple trials with the same set of cables is a measure of reproducibility.

Who is to say it was a true DBT?

No one else was in the room and I did not know what cables I was listening to.. Sound like a DBT to me..

Enough trials.

There is no given standard so I can do as many or as few trials as I like.

As I stated, no one to date has been able to differentiate comparable cable, no one.

I have many times.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I told you there were two trials.

Two trials? Doesn't sound like you can draw any conclusions from two trials, does it?
Or, you compared two cables multiple times? How many?


The fact that I have multiple trials with the same set of cables is a measure of reproducibility.


No, that is to increase the statistical trials for valid scoring.

Reproducibility is when you can repeat that test or others can repeat it and get same results. Now if you can demonstrate your skills to others at other times with the same results, that is reproducibility.


No one else was in the room and I did not know what cables I was listening to.. Sound like a DBT to me..

Who set it up? Who randomized the presentation of the cables? You? How did you hide the cable identity from yourself in the first place?



There is no given standard so I can do as many or as few trials as I like.

I believe there are standards to meet the minimum 95% confidence level with sufficient power, you need a good number of trials. Say 20 trials minimum?

http://www.music.miami.edu/programs/mue/Research/dkoya/chapter_5/chapter_5.htm

While even this has problems as its is not even close to the minimum of 95% confidence level, it used 15 trials.



I have many times.

That is a claim to be demonstrated to others. Maybe I am psychic as well besides Sylvia Brown or John Edwards.

 

[MDS]

No one else was in the room and I did not know what cables I was listening to.. Sound like a DBT to me..

Just curious how you pulled that off. You are the only one in the room and yet somehow the cables were magically swapped without you knowing??? Then you were able to identify the 'better' cable when you didn't know the cables were changed in the first place?

I'm sorry you are catching so much heat over your claims but there is a very long history of such claims and as Mtrycrafts is fond of pointing out, to date nobody has ever shown a statistically valid ability to differentiate between cables.

 

[buckyg4]

My audio buddy will swap them for me. Most of the time that I do all of this testing is for him. He's a high end dealer, but has unfortunately recently lost alot of his hearing, so I try to help him out and give him my opinion for what its worth. He tries to save his clients money on the cable side so this has been somewhat helpful to him.

I could care less about Mtrycrafts and the people here with half a brain ignore what he says. Proving that difference in cables is like proving that Pepsi is better than Coke. Some people insist coke is better and some people insist Pepsi is better. Who is right? One may say that if 51% people think Coke is the best than Coke is better and if they perform the study a million times that it further validates the fact that it is better, but thats obviously only true for the 51% of people, what it does prove is that somepeople think there is a difference and some people don't. Another example is someone who is colorblind. Say if I had Dichromasy and could not distinguish red, orange, yellow and green. You could say that something was red and orange and I may be like its just red and there is no difference in color. Am I wrong, no that's what my eyes see. This is the same way that one interprets a sound. I can hear a difference in some cables, but apparently some people can't and i'm not arguing that they don't hear a difference, what i'm saying is that some people hear a difference in cables. Its funny how alot of the people who can't hear a difference always quote some study, in all honesty my guess is that these people have not even gone through a DBT and just believe it because this supposed expert says it. Believe me, statistically. you can create a study to prove almost anything or show both sides of any story. In my real life career I have used statistics to make one point, but one could have looked at the same data set and analyzed it another way to make another point.

Just curious how you pulled that off. You are the only one in the room and yet somehow the cables were magically swapped without you knowing??? Then you were able to identify the 'better' cable when you didn't know the cables were changed in the first place?

I'm sorry you are catching so much heat over your claims but there is a very long history of such claims and as Mtrycrafts is fond of pointing out, to date nobody has ever shown a statistically valid ability to differentiate between cables.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Proving that difference in cables is like proving that Pepsi is better than Coke. Some people insist coke is better and some people insist Pepsi is better. Who is right?

Oh, you are only after a personal preference then, not if there are audible differences? You can similarly test Coke and Pepsi if there are differences by taste alone. One can prefer anything they desire for any reason but if one is interested in audible differences, then the protocol is most important if one is after a reliable result.


I can hear a difference in some cables, but apparently some people can't and i'm not arguing that they don't hear a difference, what i'm saying is that some people hear a difference in cables.

So, it is a difference you are after, not a preference? Or, is that step two?
Well, to date, no one has been able to differentiate sonic differences between comparable cables, period, end of story, whether or not you care what I have to say. after all, I rely on historical data from DBT protocol, published in some form or other.

Its funny how alot of the people who can't hear a difference always quote some study,

And what is wrong with that?

in all honesty my guess is that these people have not even gone through a DBT and just believe it because this supposed expert says it.


Actually, people who have participated in DBTs also say this. And, the data speaks for itself. Besides, my hearing acuity is not on trial here. I believe you made some testable claims about audible differences. I asked about it. So far, it is not convincing one bit.





Believe me, statistically. you can create a study to prove almost anything or show both sides of any story.

Yes, I see yours, not convincing. But thanks for the explanations and participation in this discussion.