HDMI and displaying at 1080i on a HDTV

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latrosicarius

Audioholic Intern
Ok this is re-edited:

Say I have a 1080i HD source like a "HDDVD" or HDTV satelite, etc. I take it to a digital A/V receiver with a HDMI cable.

If my 1080i HDTV doesn't have an HDMI input, can I still bring it to my tv with Component video cable? If so, what will the resolution be? 1080i?

So basically this setup:


Thanks!
 
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Eric Apple

Junior Audioholic
Using a component cable there will not support HDCP. So you will be able to watch 480p copy protected media, higher res media (or scaled lower res) will most likely result in the error message "The display unit must support HDCP to view this signal" displayed on the monitor screen.

You can also watch non protected higher res content such as off air broadcasts.

This of course depends upon the player unit requiring HDCP. Some lesser know brands of equipment don't support HDCP. So, you can scale the output to whatever you want. I think the Oppo DVD player does this, as well as the Bravo DVD player. So you can view higer res over component connections.

It's crappy, but HDCP is going to be a continuing issue. I recommened to make sure you display device supprts HDCP. But if you want to use component connections, don't use player equipment that requires HDCP. A couple years down the road hopefully you will be set when blue ray or other formats are possibly only available on equipment that requires HDCP support. Also, if running the cable is a total hassel, run a HDMI cable at the same time as component just to cover the situation when it will be required.
 
L

latrosicarius

Audioholic Intern
Thanks for the info. That all makes sense compared to what I read on other sites, even if it sucks.

Anyway, my first question about that is: if your 1080i source (player, etc) has an HDMI output but does NOT support HDCP, and you run a HDMI cable from that to a AV receiver that DOES support HDCP, and then you try to output that to a 1080i HDTV that also does NOT have HDMI through a DVI cable, will the end resolution still be 1080i? <-- I mean, will the receiver scale down the res, even though the player doesn't mind?

The other question is: what is the max res that Component Video cable can support? If it is better than 480p, wouldn't it be better to go straight from the 1080i source (player, etc -- even if it is HDCP-compatable) to the AV receiver, to the 1090i HDTV, using only Component Video cables and Toslink Optical Audio cables?

Thanks
 
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Eric Apple

Junior Audioholic
Q) Anyway, my first question about that is: if your 1080i source (player, etc) has an HDMI output but does NOT support HDCP, and you run a HDMI cable from that to a AV receiver that DOES support HDCP, and then you try to output that to a 1080i HDTV that also does NOT have HDMI through a DVI cable, will the end resolution still be 1080i? <-- I mean, will the receiver scale down the res, even though the player doesn't mind?
A) The receiver does not supply HDCP handshake, it just passes it along bidirectionaly. So it's a non issue. If the player does not requirement a handshake, then nothing will - you will get 1080i or whatever

Q) The other question is: what is the max res that Component Video cable can support? If it is better than 480p, wouldn't it be better to go straight from the 1080i source (player, etc -- even if it is HDCP-compatable) to the AV receiver, to the 1090i HDTV, using only Component Video cables and Toslink Optical Audio cables?
A) Going directly from the souce to the display with video is actually the safest method. You avoid introducing any issues by having a switch in the signal path. Component can support any res including 1080i. The connection method you mention is not any better then any method that fully supports the required bandwidth including DVI. However, you can see differences in DVI vs. component connections. On my equipment, I prefer DVI. Others with different equipment prefer component. Also, sometimes bugs called white crush or black crush exist for DVI but not component. So, that could make component a better looking connection unless you've got an analog red crush issue. Bottom line is unlesss you are willing to buy exactly the same setup someone else is using and has worked out all the tweaks, you will have to try some tweaking to determine what works best for your setup. Both component and DVI support enough bandwidth for HD signals. But, only one supports HDCP.
 
W

westcott

Audioholic General
It would probably be better if you kept the signal in the analog world from the DVD player to the display or the receiver.

It is best to keep your conversions to a minimum no matter what.

Component cables are capable of carrying HD bandwidth material but it really depends on the receiver and the output source.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
Odds are good that if you only have a HDMI connnection between the source (HD-DVD) and the receiver, that the receiver will not convert the incoming HDMI signal to component or some other format. In fact, it is almost guaranteed that that will NOT occur. Indidvidual receivers may support that function, but I would not call that a question that can be said definitely 'yes' or 'no'.

So, if you don't have a HDMI/DVI (w/HDCP) connection, you should not connect HDMI/DVI to anything at any point in the chain. Simply run component out of the source (HD-DVD) to the receiver, then to the display.

NOTE: As said above, component video fully supports all ATSC high definition video standards including 1080i, 720p, 480p, and 480i. There is no reason, other than copy protection, that full resolution HDTV can't be sent over component video cables. It is just the manufacturers trying to keep people from copying things illegally that is the reason that the switch to HDMI or DVI must occur.

Throw the HDMI cable away if your display doesn't have a digital input - you don't need it.
 
L

latrosicarius

Audioholic Intern
Thank you guys, this is very enlightening.

So essentially, you guys are saying that there would be no quality difference from HDMI compared to Component (with good cables, of course)?

So since both HDMI and Component video cables both support 1080i HD content, what's to keep people from just recording the content using Component? I mean, one will be "digital" (woohoo), but the quality will be the same, right?

So are the next-gen HD DVD players (BlueRay, etc) supposed to come without Component? I mean, what's the point of the HDMI to make sure all this copy protection stuff is in place, if the Component is there?

Thanks
 
jaxvon

jaxvon

Audioholic Ninja
HDMI will eventually become an all-in-one solution for video and audio. It has the ability to transmit 1080p video and (I think) 8 or 9 channels of high-rez audio.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
latrosicarius said:
So essentially, you guys are saying that there would be no quality difference from HDMI compared to Component (with good cables, of course)?

So since both HDMI and Component video cables both support 1080i HD content, what's to keep people from just recording the content using Component? I mean, one will be "digital" (woohoo), but the quality will be the same, right?

So are the next-gen HD DVD players (BlueRay, etc) supposed to come without Component? I mean, what's the point of the HDMI to make sure all this copy protection stuff is in place, if the Component is there?
There is almost no difference between component & HDMI, but most displays treat incoming component and incoming HDMI differently and one may appear better on some displays. But, with the same source equipment, and same cables, the OTHER format may appear better on a different display. Impossible to say which will look better, or if neither will look better really.

Well, there is still copyright protection on analog video, so recorders won't record those signals with copyright protection. Also, look around for a recorder with component video INPUT.... the list is short. About as close to non-existent as there could ever be. Someday we will be able to record HD directly via HDMI or component - but not yet that I know of.

Finally - yes, next gen players will have component output, but it will limit the video output to a lower resolution, like 480p. You won't be able to enjoy the benefits of full blown HD viewing without going to a HDMI or DVI connection between the player and your display.
 
L

latrosicarius

Audioholic Intern
Hi again, thanks for the reply. But are you sure that they will limit the analog Component? I read somewhere that only the HDMI is limited if you try to play it on a non-HDMI viewer. I thought the analog always was unaffected. Although I'm probably wrong :( You seem like you know what you're talking about.
 
E

Eric Apple

Junior Audioholic
latrosicarius said:
Hi again, thanks for the reply. But are you sure that they will limit the analog Component? I read somewhere that only the HDMI is limited if you try to play it on a non-HDMI viewer. I thought the analog always was unaffected. Although I'm probably wrong :( You seem like you know what you're talking about.
Yep - I'm sure about it. If I try setting output to component with higher then 480p with copy protected media, the picture and sound cut off and a copy protection error message appears on the screen.

Remember though not all content is protected - like network TV. 24 rocks in HD on a PJ. There are a few loophole players that don't enforce any hdcp (at least for now). So, content protected media can be output at high res such as 720p on those players. Search this board for Oppo and you can read up on one.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
latrosicarius said:
But are you sure that they will limit the analog Component? I read somewhere that only the HDMI is limited if you try to play it on a non-HDMI viewer.
Yes - I'm sure.

Keep in mind, this is an artificial limitation. If manufacturers decided they wanted to allow you to have Blu-Ray Disc or HD-DVD disc information over component video at 720p or 1080i there is no reason it wouldn't work.

But, they have decided NOT to allow this. Most upconverting DVD players also do NOT allow for 720p or 1080i over component. It's not like the component cables can't carry it, but they are pooing themselves just worried to death about pirating and illegal copies of their precious disc (helloooo!!! DVD Shrink???).

Anyway, it is possible that a company may market a HD disc player, at some point, that simply outputs the material over component at full HD resolutions with no problem. In the DVD world, the Oppo player is one of the very few that upconverts DVD material and happily puts it out over HDMI or component video cables with no problems at all.

HD discs? Not likely. At least, not right away.
 
R

rolyasm

Full Audioholic
This should probably be in the noob section, but here goes. What is HDCP? I understand HDMI and DVI, but don't understand the HDCP connection. Thanks
Roly
 
L

latrosicarius

Audioholic Intern
Okay thanks guys. I don't know what the big deal over this HDCP stuff is anyway. I mean, if I wanted to copy a disk, I'd put it in my computer and DVD Decrypt > DVD Shrink it. All this is just a royal pain. But thanks anyway for the answers!

Rolyasm, I'm not sure I'm qualified to tell you b/c I'm a noob at this too, but HDCP is High Definition Copy Protection. It's the underlying rule behind the HDMI (High Definition Multimedia Interface).

If a company wants the "High Definition Ready" logo etc on their products, they must abide by all the HDCP rules, which mostly say that they will make it difficult for people to get 1080i video off of anything besides the HDMI input, and that the display is not a recording device.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
Well, that's not quite right. A HDTV only has resolution and format requirements. It must have 720 (or more) lines, accept HDTV over one single connection type (unspecified), and be 16:9 format to carry the official HDTV logo. So, a cheap 42" plasma with 768x768 resolution and component only inputs would quality as HDTV. Likewise, a 1920x1080 display would also qualify.

HDCP, as said above, is High Definition Copyright Protection. It is digital encryption that is added to the digital data sent over DVI or HDMI cables SOMETIMES (not always). This encryption must be decoded by a HDCP compliant display device if you want to see video. If the display does not have the correct protocols for HDCP, you won't get video on your display via HDMI or DVI. HDMI and DVI are actual cable types, HDCP is a copyright protection algorhythm.

HDMI, I don't believe, inherently requires HDCP. But, I believe it is designed to allow it. That is, it was designed to always be able to include it, and broadcasters can choose not in encrypt their video, which means it would not be HDCP encrypted.

HD discs are being designed to be uncopyable (word?). That means instead of 2 weeks, it may take some high school kid a month and a half to figure out how to copy the discs. 3-4 months and we will have a product for ourselves. :)
 
L

latrosicarius

Audioholic Intern
Yes, it's impossible to have an uncopyable disk. They might as well not even try, since it's known that DVD sales are at an all time high, dispite piracy.

Anywho, if players can read the disk's content, then it's only a matter of time before someone just either breaks the algorithm, or simply emulates a "HDCP-complient set-top player" and rips the data to a mpg or whatever.
 
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rolyasm

Full Audioholic
I love it when things make sense. Thanks. Next question in this. I see a lot of projectors with DVI, not HDMI. So can you go from a DVD player with HDMI to a projector with DVI, or a DVD player with DVI to a HDMI projector? I know I will not be dissapointed with your response. ;)
Roly
 
R

roger259

Audioholic Intern
Yes, Go to Blue Jean Cable and they'll have what you need.
 
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