HD Audio Formats.. Need help with making a decision

[bilgirami]

Understanding hi def audio formats

Hello Audioholics,
I would really appreciate if someone could help me understand a few things before I go ahead and upgrade from my current Yamaha HTR-5740 receiver and Yamaha upconverting DVD player to a blu ray hidef dvd player and a receiver that supports hi def audio formats.

1.If I buy a blu ray player that has on-board decoders for dolby true hd/dts hd or dts hd master, but use an a/v receiver that does not have decoders for these audio formats (like Yamaha rx-v661), will I be able to hear hi def sound from my speakers.

Answer: Yes, via HDMI with uncompressed PCM audio tracks, or via analogue outputs if they are available on both your player and AV receiver.

2. If my dvd player does not have on-board decoders for hi-def audio formats (like Samsung BDP-S1400) but I use a receiver that has on-board HD audio decoders (like an Onkyo TX-SR605 or Yamaha RX-V663), will that give me hi def sound from my speakers.

Answer: If the player cannot "decode" the HD audio then it cannot play back those particular formats (some players were not at all compatible with certain HD formats, like DTS-HD Master Audio for example). If the player can "decode" the HD audio, then it can also output those formats as bitstream, or as uncompressed PCM, either via HDMI or analogue audio outputs. In this case, you'd then be fine with a compatible AV receiver. If the player can decode and thus output the format as bitstream, then a compatible receiver can pull in the native audio without it first going to PCM (until it hits the AV receiver anyway).

3. I am also not quite clear on 'bitstream' output and uncompressed pulse code modulation (PCM) and what role they play in how a DVD/CD player outputs audio

Answer: It's all related - see above.

 

[Kolia]

This thread will be a candidate to sticky status!

 

[trnqk7]

1) Yes, set the output of the player to linear pcm mode. You will get uncompressed 5.1 or 7.1 linear pcm that will be decoded by your AVR for high-def sound. This works on my Denon 2807 from a PS3 and should work for any modern receiver.

2) Yes, this will work as well. I believe in this case, you set the output of the dvd player to bitstream (it may do this automatically since it doesn't have the decoders built in) where you receiver will decode the high-def codec (I believe into linear pcm) and you will have "high-def" sound.

3)Bitstream is the undecoded high-def audio codec streaming from the player that your AVR will have to decode before you can get sound. Linear PCM is something that all the AVR's on the market today (well, should be anyway) understand and will decode and play. Either will give you uncompressed audio as I understand it in multichannel surround sound, i.e. high-def. Bitstream will just make the pretty lights on the AVR light up that say DTS Master/Dolby TrueHD, etc, while PCM will not.

One caveat-I am assuming you are using an HDMI connection for both audio and video in these cases. I think 7.1/5.1 analog connections work similarly, but have no experience with these.

I think this is correct-anybody feel free to chime in and correct whatever.

 

[bilgirami]

Hey Kolia, not quite sure what you mean. Why would it be a sticky topic.

 

[mudrummer99]

Hey Kolia, not quite sure what you mean. Why would it be a sticky topic.

It's a great question that many people would like to get a straight answer from. Stickied topics stay at the top of the forums for a long period of time. Take it as a compliment that you asked a very good question.

Mike

 

[trnqk7]

B/c it is something that a lot of people have questions about-search around the forums a little bit and you will see new questions about this everyday. It's something that can be answered factually and not with opinions as well, so it doesn't need to repeated ad nauseam if we have a sticky that covers the info. With that said, I don't think anyone would mind answering anyone's questions about this stuff either even if it was a sticky

 

[Kolia]

Hey Kolia, not quite sure what you mean. Why would it be a sticky topic.

Sticky = good

A thread good enough that it can benefit the masses is made sticky so it "sticks" to the top of the forum's topic list for everybody to see.

 

[bilgirami]

Hey trnqk7,

Thanks for your help. It makes sense.

 

[trnqk7]

No problem, that's what we are all here for!

 

[bilgirami]

K, got that. no wonder they call me an audiophyte on this form . Anyways, so here comes my next question. Anyone has experience with an onboard HD decoder bluray player (like panny 30) with a yamaha rx-v661. I am a fan of Yamaha, want to upgrade my HTR-5740 to something that can handle HD audio and has HDMI in/out. My other option is ONKYO 605 which has onboard HD decoders. I am not as big a fan of ONKYO as Yamaha but I was thinking about getting that receiver just because of its HD audio capabilites.

 

[bilgirami]

The more I learn the more difficult it gets making a decision. I am hearing that due to issues with pretty much every blu-ray player out there, the best option is to go with a PS3 as blu ray player. It will not only play all blu ray disks out there but since the firmware can be updated easily, it should have no issues playing any future blu ray disks (coming out in 2008 with more internet based features). It also has onboard decoders for new HD audio formats (Dolby Ture HD/DTS HD) except DTS HD:Master (correct me if I am wroing here guys).
As mentioned above, my dilemma is that I want to upgrade to a good blu ray player that will last me a while, an AV receiver that doesnt go out dated in a months time.
Does anyone know if PS3 is hardware limited for decoding DTS HD Master or software. If it is software then sony may resolve this issue in the coming days and PS3 becomes an obvious choice and any decent receiver that can handle uncompressed PCM will be able to put out HD audio to the speakers. If PS3 is hardware limited then one will have to look for a blu ray player that can handle DTS HD master (now or in future) and maybe then go with an AVR that can decode all HD audio formats.
I know I have made this note long but one last question: If I do decide to go with PS3 as my blu ray player, does it matter what hard disk size I go with? Are there any other important features I need to make sure my PS3 has (I think HDMI 1.2 out and optical digital out is a standard for PS3s) so it could be my blu ray player of the future.

Thanks guys.

 

[trnqk7]

I'm not sure if it has been resolved whether or not the PS3 is software or hardware limited on the DTS HD:Master. It does make an excellent player with the benefit of being a media server and game playing machine, all for the same price or less as most good/upper end blu-ray players right now.

I do believe there is a Samsung out right now that has the latest profile for Blu-Ray-but someone chime in here. It will run you at least $500 if I am correct.

Hard disk size shouldn't matter for the PS3 as far as blu-ray goes, only for games, downloads, and media server functions will it become an issue.

 

[Cozmo]

This thread will be a candidate to sticky status!

Yes! We need an HD audio sticky for all us unedjumacated folk. mods, anyone...

 

[Cavediver]

Answer:[/B] If the player cannot "decode" the HD audio then it cannot play back those particular formats (some players were not at all compatible with certain HD formats, like DTS-HD Master Audio for example). If the player can "decode" the HD audio, then it can also output those formats as bitstream, or as uncompressed PCM, either via HDMI or analogue audio outputs. In this case, you'd then be fine with a compatible AV receiver. If the player can decode and thus output the format as bitstream, then a compatible receiver can pull in the native audio without it first going to PCM (until it hits the AV receiver anyway).

3. I am also not quite clear on 'bitstream' output and uncompressed pulse code modulation (PCM) and what role they play in how a DVD/CD player outputs audio

Answer: It's all related - see above.

Actually, the answer above is not quite correct. I have a Panasonic BMP-BD30K Blu-ray player. It cannot decode the uncompressed audio tracks (Dolby True HD or DTS-HD Master Audio), internally. However, it can send the uncompressed audio tracks to my Integra 9.8 via bitstream for decoding in the 9.8.

 

[haraldo]

I have a dream....

That the master recordings will be taken out of the vaults some day......

That records company will provide drm free master recordings on Blueray..... (now that HD DVD is dead?)

Or

Provide drm free masters for online purchase / download.....

THEN we may enjoy the music !!!!!!!!!!!

Or perhaps it makes more sense to believe in Santa Claus?


Regards

-Harald

 

[kstich]

Linear PCM vs Bitstream

Here is some more information regarding linear pcm vs. bitstream data. Hopefully this makes sense…

When analog audio is converted to digital audio the data is inherently in linear pcm format (with the exception of SACD). This is the data format the conversion hardware, an analog-to-digital converter (ADC), uses. At this stage it is digital audio in its purest form.

The problem with linear pcm is that it requires vast amounts of storage. Thus, producers will package the audio channels into a compression format to save space, e.g. Dolby Digital, Dolby TrueHD, DTS, etc. The compressed data is now much smaller in size and easier to store (much like a Zip file). The reason it is called a bitstream is it is sent bit by bit in large blocks of data.

Once a complete block of data is received, it can be sent to the decoder. The decompression process converts the bitstream into a series of linear pcm samples. With the new formats like Dolby TrueHD and DTS Master Audio nothing has been lost in this process.

When the digital audio is converted back to analog through your receiver’s digital-to-analog converter (DAC) it is processing the linear pcm format.

Here is an example that might further clarify things:

The new Dave Matthews Blu-Ray disc has a 5.1 96/24 Dolby TrueHD soundtrack. This means that it was captured using 24 bit, 96 kHz linear pcm (or better) ADC’s. When they mastered the disc, the audio track was compressed using the Dolby TrueHD compressor. When the disc is played, either your player or your receiver decodes the TrueHD bitstream back into linear pcm. (This disc sounds amazing by the way!)​

What does this mean? It really does not matter whether your player or your receiver decodes the data provided that one of them can. Without getting bogged down in a discussion of cables and data transfers, they should both be the same in the end.

 

[goodman]

I've had the same dream, but as I'm listening to high resolution audio, I also want to see the musical performance in high resolution video.

 

[bilgirami]

I wasnt sure if I should start a new thread for this one, or just continue with this thread. If you guys suggest there should be a different thread for this one, I will go ahead and do it....
This time, my question is on the video side of things...
I have a Yamaha DVD player that upconverts to 1080i. I am planning on putting this signal into my ONKYO 60 which upconverts to 1080p. The video signal then will go to an LG 40" LCD 1080i television. Do you guys think the TV will not be able to handle a 1080p signal from my AVR or will it downconvert it to 1080i and display it?
Thanks

 

[trnqk7]

The tv will display a 1080i signal even if you "send" it 1080p I think.

 

[Kolia]

I wasnt sure if I should start a new thread for this one, or just continue with this thread. If you guys suggest there should be a different thread for this one, I will go ahead and do it....
This time, my question is on the video side of things...
I have a Yamaha DVD player that upconverts to 1080i. I am planning on putting this signal into my ONKYO 60 which upconverts to 1080p. The video signal then will go to an LG 40" LCD 1080i television. Do you guys think the TV will not be able to handle a 1080p signal from my AVR or will it downconvert it to 1080i and display it?
Thanks

You do NOT want to convert the signal multiple times!

Chose ONE componnent to do the convertion and get to others to only pass the signal thru.

If your TV is a 1080i display, set the dvd or receiver to convert to 1080i. Or let them send the untouched signal straight to the TV. It'll convert anything it gets to its native hardware resolution of 1080i.

Try all the combinations and select what looks best to you.