anjali3417 said:
Hi DVV,
Re - 31 May 2005/#76
Thx for the history & input re HCC and Harman-Kardon. Appreciate it.
On the basis of what you have experienced w HK, do you believe that their new engine aka AVR7300 is a good machine and that HK have overcome their apparant quality problems w prior engines in the AVR line. AMP failure come to mind along w a host of intermittent problems like involuntary mode switching, memory loss etc etc.
I'm afraid I cannot answer that question. I have neither heard nor seen, much less looked under the hood of the new H/K series receivers; in other words, I know practically nothing about them.
What I can do is draw a line between three points of H/K that I do know of. The oldest in the bunch, 6550, integrated amp (2x50/70W into 8/4 ohms) was made in Japan, with above average quality components (e.g. ELNA 15.000 uF caps, etc). That one was made in November 1993.
The next one, H/K 680, their top of the integrated amp line offering, made in March 1999, uses a true dual mono configuration, with lavish execution (e.g. using a full bridge rectifier for each suuply line, so there's 4 of them rathe than the usual 2, 2x8,200 high quality ELNA caps per channel, best FET switching I have ever seen in my life, etc) was still made in Japan - but that was the ONLY model in the series made in Japan, the rest were made in Korea, and not nearly as well.
The last was a stereo reciever about three years ago - that was a pale shade of white in comparison, totally run-of-the-mill products, with parts I have never even heard of. And it sounded like it, rather nondescrepit. I'd never buy it, and consequently, I'd never recommend it to anybody.
That's where my monitoring of H/K's efforts stops.
Media Reviewers do not tell the full story, but tend to talk about the 'sizzle' at hand and have no recollection of prior issues w a piece of equipment in earlier prod lines.
I have asked the same to HK and the reply is standard - 'we always strive for quality products'. Yet I know for a fact that they have had many component failures in earlier AVR lines due to 'heat related' component malfunctions. It makes sense when engines generate use 1000+ watts of power , on a continuous USE basis say 10-12 hours per day per week, that this power goes somewhere, and the heat generated has to be dissipated. Hence the new huge heat sinks.
Agreed on the heat sink issue. Sorry to hear they had so many failures, I tended to think of them as a good cut above the pack.
However:
No one answers the questions directly, or address the core issue - when expensive electronics [HK AVR] are outsourced to places like China - then what kind of MTBF can we expect from components used in these engines aka capacitors, relays etc.
Why wd not the Chinese component suppliers & even HK themselves: knowingly design in a component life of 2-3 years so that as HK product lines evolve in these 2-3 years the previous engines are naturally out of mfg warranty and fail and have to be replaced by the customer? or repaired by the customer at high cost.
Well, Dan Banquer answered this above, and all I can say is that I completely agree with him. Perhaps we are both two old farts who believe in some totally outdated things, like good sound, quality build, longevity, low service requirements, but believe me, we can't help it. I know what quality is, and I can't look anybody in the eye and claim quality for anything I am not absolutely certain of. Definitely not one of the new whizz kid generation.
Your question touches on the problems of mass production. H/K has, after so many years, succumbed to modern day trends, it seems, and has not only moved its manufacturing to China, but also its component sourcing. Use low quality components and all you can possibly end up with is a poor reliability product.
Which company that you know off designs to last? My 20 year old Pioneer stereo receiver, Technics Quartz turntable, Dual tape deck, AR speakers still work fine. Where has this kind of longevity and quality gone?
It's gone to incredible top manager staff paycheques, to fancy advertising, to graft, you name it.
I know EXACTLY what you mean. My own Dual TT, Phlips open reel tape deck, a monster of 60 lbs, purchased in 1981, still works pefectly with only a change of the belt (since the capstan is belt driven via a 7 lbs flywheel).
I used to believe that HK Denon etc were quality brands because of features and quality of machine life - ie performance and longevity. The returns for HK in its AVR line are abysmal and retail stores try not to sell it.
Is this an unfair knock on HK? Is Denon better in the longevity reliability scale?
If you have insights please share them. BTW - is there a tech name w credibility re HK that you recommend I contact.
Thank You/Anjali3417
I am now somewhat embarassed, because if I were to answer your quality issue question truthfully, I'd have to advertise people on this forum. In my defence, these are the people I know about, but certainly not the only people still pursuing audio and build excellence.
Of the people you are likely to have heard of at all, the only person I would vouch for is James Bongiorno, a giant in each and every sense, except physical. He beat cancer twice, he was designer and chief designer for companies such as Dynaco, SAE, GAS, Sumo and now his favorite pet project, the Ampzilla amp. Peek at it at
http://www.ampzilla2000.com .That man is God, and the rest of us designing amps can only hope to be his little angels - very little angels. His build quality is like his sound - out of this world.
To put it in a nutshell, for quality of sound and build you need to look at:
1. The high end gang, where build quality is usually excellent, but the quality of sound rarely matches the price tag, and
2. the outskirts of the audio world, the little guys, who are still trying to be better than the rest, at prices lower than anything you'd have to pay for something similar from established brand names. Their problem is that most people SAY they want quality sound, but are most unwilling to buy from little guys, believing their say $1K price is unfair, or whatever. Yet, in many cases, you'd find that their $1K price translates to literally $5K from a famous name, but the $5K famous name price tag does not include the sound quality of the little guy.
In that respect, Europeans are far ahead of Americans, they are much more flexible.
Lastly, the general public cannot escape its part of the blame for this sad situation. Just look at current trends - if your front plate is not at least 10 mm thick, you are not going to be selling much. Professional RAL standards require 3 mm, but the consumer market demands 10 mm? What are people into these days, selling and reselling aluminium? And believe me, a 10 mm thick front plate is far from being cheap no matter how many you buy.
Current push for more and more options, more and more processing power inside receivers, auto setups, etc, etc, etc, results in more and more money being spent on beads and trinkets and less and less money on the sound and build quality.
How much build quality do you want when a 7 channel receiver costs like $300, or $400? And it has to have all the latest fads.
You get the point, I'm sure, so I better stop ranting now, I'm beginning to froth.
Cheers,
DVV