Has this Home Theater Room been ruined by clowns who over-sound-paneled?

C

cmaninchina

Audiophyte
The HTS Room of "Potential"

Once you've finished reading, the video above will give you a bad, but far clearer idea of what I'm talking about below

Ok, - so some background here. I have never built or purchased a HTS, apart from a cheap Phillips Costco 5.1 system-in-a-box in the early 2000's when that was all the rage.

I live in China - and recently signed a lease on a really great place. Very unique in that it has TWO basement levels, basically that go down the depth of the parking garage beneath the apartment tower. The basement has been finished - but is still essentially bare of furniture. On the bottom level of the basement (I promise, this doesn't take a weird turn with some scene from Saw) - there is... a "home theater room" that has had absolutely nothing done to it except... a ridiculous amount of sound paneling. Which, on the one hand, is needed, because the entire basement level is solid concrete walls. I saw another one that was completely unfinished save paint on the walls, tile on the floor, and empty two floors high - and the echo was deafening even at regular speaking levels. Totally unusable. For anything. Without sound panels.

Whoever made this "room" had the start of a right idea... the size is right (although the ceiling is a little low - probably 9 feet - and it's clearly already been wired in part for a home theater in mind: there are speaker wires in the front top right and left of the room, front bottom and right of the room, back left and right, and a projector space for a ceiling mount with the HDMI already there - going to a small (too small, probably) side of the wall for what I assume is supposed to be the location of the receiver and media players.

The floor is bare marble/tile. The walls? Every square inch is covered in a sound-absorbing tile. The Ceiling? Every square inch is covered in sound-absorbing tile. Except for the massive, central area that's covered in what looks to be a sound-absorbing "star-ceiling". There are also two pillars in the room - center and back. The projector wiring is right in-between them. But that puts something of a hard limit on how far back seating/couches can go.

Basically, what I'm asking for is general advice: from my understanding, a 7.1 system is out because there is NO bouncing sound off of that ceiling without ripping out the light-extravaganza. I'm ok to settle with a 5.1 or 5.2 system. But there is also NO sound being refracted off of any wall - it just is absorbed into a black hole of sound paneling. It'd be a kick-ass space as is if I wanted to invite a band over to practice... there is no risk of sound getting through two levels of basement and concrete. But has this room been ruined? And given the size... I feel like I'm going to need some serious speakers to make a dent (I'm planning on a 150" screen and 4k projector). But without sound... what's the point?
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
The HTS Room of "Potential"

Once you've finished reading, the video above will give you a bad, but far clearer idea of what I'm talking about below

Ok, - so some background here. I have never built or purchased a HTS, apart from a cheap Phillips Costco 5.1 system-in-a-box in the early 2000's when that was all the rage.

I live in China - and recently signed a lease on a really great place. Very unique in that it has TWO basement levels, basically that go down the depth of the parking garage beneath the apartment tower. The basement has been finished - but is still essentially bare of furniture. On the bottom level of the basement (I promise, this doesn't take a weird turn with some scene from Saw) - there is... a "home theater room" that has had absolutely nothing done to it except... a ridiculous amount of sound paneling. Which, on the one hand, is needed, because the entire basement level is solid concrete walls. I saw another one that was completely unfinished save paint on the walls, tile on the floor, and empty two floors high - and the echo was deafening even at regular speaking levels. Totally unusable. For anything. Without sound panels.

Whoever made this "room" had the start of a right idea... the size is right (although the ceiling is a little low - probably 9 feet - and it's clearly already been wired in part for a home theater in mind: there are speaker wires in the front top right and left of the room, front bottom and right of the room, back left and right, and a projector space for a ceiling mount with the HDMI already there - going to a small (too small, probably) side of the wall for what I assume is supposed to be the location of the receiver and media players.

The floor is bare marble/tile. The walls? Every square inch is covered in a sound-absorbing tile. The Ceiling? Every square inch is covered in sound-absorbing tile. Except for the massive, central area that's covered in what looks to be a sound-absorbing "star-ceiling". There are also two pillars in the room - center and back. The projector wiring is right in-between them. But that puts something of a hard limit on how far back seating/couches can go.

Basically, what I'm asking for is general advice: from my understanding, a 7.1 system is out because there is NO bouncing sound off of that ceiling without ripping out the light-extravaganza. I'm ok to settle with a 5.1 or 5.2 system. But there is also NO sound being refracted off of any wall - it just is absorbed into a black hole of sound paneling. It'd be a kick-ass space as is if I wanted to invite a band over to practice... there is no risk of sound getting through two levels of basement and concrete. But has this room been ruined? And given the size... I feel like I'm going to need some serious speakers to make a dent (I'm planning on a 150" screen and 4k projector). But without sound... what's the point?
Go in and clap your hands- if you hear no reflections at all, it's acoustically dead, but if you hear some small reflections, the treatment isn't absorbing ALL of the sound.

Find out what was applied to the walls and ceiling- once you know that, you should be able to find an approximate NRC (Noise Reduction Coefficient) spec which will tell you how much sound is absorbed at various frequencies.

Remember- you can not only add panels that absorb or diffuse sound, you can also add panels that reflect sound.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I'd think that bare flooring would help offset the wall/ceiling treatment....altho I'd personally rather have the floor covered and have a compromise elsewhere. 7.1 isn't necessarily going to have anything to do with the ceiling....7.1.2 or 7.1.4 setups would have ceiling speakers. If anything lack of reflection may make 7.1 better than 5.1. (7.1 would be L/C/R plus surrounds plus rear surrounds).
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
I agree in that it may not be as bad you think. Hand clapping is a good simple test. Reflections off of the walls would be preferred to the floor, but you could lay a large thick area rug in front of the main speakers to help reduce floor reflections. I wouldn't worry so much about the ceiling. As mentioned, panels have different levels of absorption and it is not 100%. If the room sounds too dead, you could replace some of the side panels with diffusers instead of absorbers, or even something a little more reflective. With proper panels you will not be limited to how many speakers you can use. The room looks fairly large so two subwoofers would be preferred. If the wiring is there go for 7.2.x. If there is an audio dealer in your area with someone who specializes in room acoustics, it would be better to hire a consultant to plan the room treatments rather than guess what panels need replacing, since you mentioned not being very experienced in this field.
 
C

cmaninchina

Audiophyte
Thanks to all that replied - this is very helpful. I don't know that I will be able to determine exactly what treatment was applied to the ceilings/walls (this was done by a former tenant, and I can't see any labeling on the material) - but I will do the clap test and maybe bring a small speaker when I'm back there next week. I only spent time in the room once when this video was filmed - and noise/reverb in the room was a STARK contrast to the hallways outside understandably... it felt mostly dead, but I wasn't going out of my way to test anything.

And @lovinthehd - I misspoke referencing 7.1 and the ceiling; I meant 7.1.2 or 7.1.4 as you mentioned, but it's helpful to consider that 7.1 might be better if there is no reflection from the ceiling (and yes - I would also have preferred the option of carpeting on the floor and a regular ceiling, both for comfort and the option of 7.1.2/4 system options). if anything, I worry that I'll need to avoid floor covering to keep some reflections in the room - and would certainly want them rather than having a couch on a bare, cold, marble floor.

Last question: if it does become an issue of needing to add sound reflective panels back in... any suggestions where to start? I'm reluctant to trust many local "audio technicians" expertise here... most will be far more interested in selling the most expensive 'solution' - whether in sound system or treatments - whether or not it is an actual solution at all. Thanks again, all!
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
If you are looking to educate yourself, search the Audioholics Youtube channel. They have several live-streams on acoustics that were recorded. They are long, though, like 45 - 60 minutes each. Replacing panels without someone trained in the field is going to be hit and miss. If you want to do it yourself first check how dead the room sounds. Getting a 2-channel stereo in there for testing would help. Rooms with too much absorption will usually sound strange when you have a conversation with someone as we are used to hearing reflections. If the room sounds really dead, I would maybe look at replacing every second panel on the side walls so that they alternate.
home-theater-room-getty-vostok-57f55aeb3df78c690f118170.jpg

If the room is too dead you want to add reflections. That could be anything from a sound dispersing panel with some reflectivity, to a hardboard panel with a lot of reflectivity. For that matter, a cheap test would be to hang 2 foot wide strips of hardboard over every other panel to see how the sound changes. UA Acoustics in the Ukraine make a variety of diffusers that have limited absorption but still provide reflectivity and come in various colours and designs. Thicker panels will absorb more and cover a wider range of frequencies. I think they ship world wide. The Next Best Thing Studio on Youtube uses them and he's in Canada.
SS_4758-Edit-2SS(1)-999x665.jpg
 
C

cmaninchina

Audiophyte
OK - UPDATE - (Move-in is 1 week and counting)

I got into the room and the sound paneling is not as dead as I thought. The sound paneling seems to mainly absorb higher frequencies (and I've attached an NRC chart for these panels that I managed to find online) - but there are other issues. I'm going to have to work with what is, because the structural layout of the room is beyond what I can change (obviously). I have attached a diagram of the room (and pictures to accompany so it makes more sense).

I've got a 5.1 THX system - Teufel System 5 series 1: https://gr.teufelaudio.com/system-5-thx-select-certified-cinema-51-100331000?delivery_country=GR

Center Channel Mounted on wall directly below the screen, about 60cm off the ground. FL and FR Mounted on the wall on either side of screen. Sub likely offset on front wall, but I'll play with placement once everything else is set-up to see what sounds best.

My main question/need for advice is: should I aim to mount the rear dipoles on the side walls (RL and RR Position A in Diagram), or hanging from the ceiling between the side walls and the couch/seating position (RL and RR Position B in Diagram)? I can wire within the walls/ceiling without much hassle for all the speakers. The ceiling is LOW - only 2 meters. But I can still mount them at about 150cm high in either location.

The damn columns (which are structural supports for the entire basement and obviously can't be moved, and which are also covered in the sound panels), are the biggest limitation of the room, as this dictates how far back the seating can go, and functionally act to cut off sound from floor to ceiling in those positions. Also prevents 7.1 from being an option. There are also large 'doors' that will be covered - either by building out actual panel doors to fill them, or minimally, with a heavy hanging 'sound' mat doors (like in a Karaoke room, which painfully, is what this room was allegedly designated for... remember, I live in China. SMH.)

All advice sincerely appreciated!!
 

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Trebdp83

Audioholic Ninja
Crazy idea, but I'd consider putting a panel in the doorway and shrinking the size of the entrance to the room. Then, I'd flip the arrangement and put a short throw in that big closet and a huge screen in the opening. This would allow for 7.1 setup vs the other arrangement's 5.1 setup and I'd put a bar and concession stand on the other side of the pillars. This setup would depend upon access to power outlets and some new wiring routes of course. If not an option, I'd stick with 5.1 with the couch backed up to the pillars and surrounds at the sides mounted on the walls. Either way, nice room. Enjoy!
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
If you will be laying a thick rug on the floor that will help as well. You may be fine without changing any panels.

What does your receiver manual show for supported speaker setups? Position A for side surrounds or use position B if it calls for rear surrounds?
 
C

cmaninchina

Audiophyte
If you will be laying a thick rug on the floor that will help as well. You may be fine without changing any panels.

What does your receiver manual show for supported speaker setups? Position A for side surrounds or use position B if it calls for rear surrounds?
Image attached - but essentially, it recommends the sides. However, being dipoles, there isn't a 'wall' behind the seating in this room, and the rear-facing part of the dipoles will be going into the back 1/3rd of the empty room. To make matters worse, the unlovable pillars will block at least a good amount of that sound from reflecting back to the seating.

And yes- already have the thick rug to cover a decent area of the floor under/in front of the couch!
 

Attachments

C

cmaninchina

Audiophyte
Crazy idea, but I'd consider putting a panel in the doorway and shrinking the size of the entrance to the room. Then, I'd flip the arrangement and put a short throw in that big closet and a huge screen in the opening. This would allow for 7.1 setup vs the other arrangement's 5.1 setup and I'd put a bar and concession stand on the other side of the pillars. This setup would depend upon access to power outlets and some new wiring routes of course. If not an option, I'd stick with 5.1 with the couch backed up to the pillars and surrounds at the sides mounted on the walls. Either way, nice room. Enjoy!
Great minds think alike - and this was my thought at one point. But what's not evident from the picture is that space isn't a closet - it actually is open straight up to a skylight two floors above, which in turn, is open to a balcony on the basement one level (this is basement 2), and just isn't practical to wall off entirely both because it cuts off all the light (which I could live with) but would also mean having to do a pretty extreme Reno (and this is a place we're renting long-term). There's also an AC vent in the very back of the room that is needed for air circulation (and temp control of the room, obvs). I think I'll have to live with the side walls. I might be able to figure out some sort of reflective paneling that could go in the far left/right of the pillars though...
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
With the low ceiling I would agree with your preference for the sides but lean towards getting them behind the couch position closer to the back wall (close to the doorway). Can't tell how the ceiling is laid out at the back, but I also thought about having the surrounds in the rear corners at 45' so that sound is reflected off of the back and side walls towards the couch. You would need a ceiling mount to get them out far enough, but if it's all open to the floor above then I suppose they have to be in front of the columns.
 
T

Trebdp83

Audioholic Ninja
Well, still a cool room. Put a big rug down, set it all up, see how it sounds and deal with the walls as needed.
 
C

cmaninchina

Audiophyte
Much appreciated Eppie and Trebdp83 - really appreciate the advice. I'll get it all set-up, and post back if I've got other questions/issues!
 

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