Harman/Samsung Buys an Empire in Sound United From Masimo

[Verdinut]

Let's not ignore that a great portion of the youth never went to an acoustic instrument concert, or a performance of a full symphony orchestra or of an opera featuring singers who don't need amplification of their voice. On top of that, a great percentage have been listening to MP3 recordings without the absence of audible distortion. Actually, they don't know how good it is to listen to high quality recordings with good quality electronics and speakers. Those are reasons explaining to a great extent, a lack of interest in high fidelity and the reduction in sales of decent quality audio stuff.

 

[TLS Guy]

I am going to heartily disagree with this. While it may be true for you, it’s not true for everyone. I may concede that you shouldn’t chase teen frequencies at the expense of the overall system. But really? 25-30hz extension should be ignored? Cmon mark, have some fun.

I'm talking about a single pair of speakers and not subs. Before the days of subs many speakers had F3s in the 25 to 30 Hz range. Once subs came along F3 went up into the 45 to 55 Hz range making subs close to mandatory. So this affects WAF.

The lowest frequency of the double bass is 41 Hz, and some double basses with extensions can reach 30 Hz.

Some orchestral bass drums can reach as low as 20 Hz. So that is why an F3 of 30 to 25 Hz is adequate because of room gain. The fundamental of the lowest note of a 13' organ stop is 16 Hz, but all the others are above that.

Movies are now crazy with distracting gratuitous bass. Now I give you there is the odd scene that makes deep bass and subs impressive. However I now find movies with repeated gratuitous bass where it adds nothing to the story and is actually distracting.

Those effects rattle the room and even the crockery in the cabinets downstairs.

Deep bass really permeates and is another negative for spouses.

So for most music the lower limits I suggested are adequate and make for excellent reproduction in the home assuming good engineering.

As I have said many times before, subs are the least important item in an audio system. On these forums and others you would think it was the most important speaker and item in audio system, when it is in fact by far the least important.

 

[highfigh]

I'm talking about a single pair of speakers and not subs. Before the days of subs many speakers had F3s in the 25 to 30 Hz range. Once subs came along F3 went up into the 45 to 55 Hz range making subs close to mandatory. So this affects WAF.

The lowest frequency of the double bass is 41 Hz, and some double basses with extensions can reach 30 Hz.

Some orchestral bass drums can reach as low as 20 Hz. So that is why an F3 of 30 to 25 Hz is adequate because of room gain. The fundamental of the lowest note of a 13' organ stop is 16 Hz, but all the others are above that.

Movies are now crazy with distracting gratuitous bass. Now I give you there is the odd scene that makes deep bass and subs impressive. However I now find movies with repeated gratuitous bass where it adds nothing to the story and is actually distracting.

Those effects rattle the room and even the crockery in the cabinets downstairs.

Deep bass really permeates and is another negative for spouses.

So for most music the lower limits I suggested are adequate and make for excellent reproduction in the home assuming good engineering.

As I have said many times before, subs are the least important item in an audio system. On these forums and others you would think it was the most important speaker and item in audio system, when it is in fact by far the least important.

When I started selling audio, we noticed that as people grew older and 'grew up', they wanted less bass. It was fun when they were younger, but they eventually realized that the way they were listening, the sound wasn't balanced and the old way was actually annoying. They also realized that they didn't need to peel paint with SPL.

Some grow out of it, some don't.

 

[Big-Q]

I think this is a better situation for the brands. The best situation would have been to just stay Sound United and not take the silly Masimo diversion.

 

[TLS Guy]

I think this is a better situation for the brands. The best situation would have been to just stay Sound United and not take the silly Masimo diversion.

Not that simple. Sound United was owned by a private equity company controlled largely by Mitt Romney, and they wanted to cash out. Masimo paid far too much for it, and had not clue how to properly run it.

 

[lovinthehd]

Not that simple. Sound United was owned by a private equity company controlled largely by Mitt Romney, and they wanted to cash out. Masimo paid far too much for it, and had not clue how to properly run it.

The Bain/Romney buyout of D&M Holdings was before a different group, DEI (under another politician, Darryl Issa) held and formed Sound United.

 

[TLS Guy]

The Bain/Romney buyout of D&M Holdings was before a different group, DEI (under another politician, Darryl Issa) held and formed Sound United.

You keep track of that stuff much better than I do, so I stand corrected. Any how it Sound United have obviously been a corporate football and it is no wonder there are quality issues.

I really do hope they have a stable home. I think they do have too many brands, especially speakers and that area is in massive need of rationalization. I would be surprised if there are not major changes announced in the coming months.

One thing I really do believe is that there is a huge need for small elegant gear that sounds good and does not break the bank. I know our friends are not happy with what they are forced to use which is s sound bar and a small ghastly sub that is far from musical.

Some idiot MBA, and probably a bunch, have sold the idea that making bulky receivers with an intimidating bunch of terminals on the back and a bunch of power amps most would not use gives flexibility. Well it does not. Most would be really happy with a small two channel streaming device with a DAC that could connect to a TV and powered or active speakers of a size and style they want and also a sub if they want.
I know a lot of our close friends would be buying that and really enjoy it. Nothing of the sort exists and this is why we are in such a sorry mess and confronting our end game. This was ALL avoidable with good design and execution.

 

[lovinthehd]

You keep track of that stuff much better than I do, so I stand corrected. Any how it Sound United have obviously been a corporate football and it is no wonder there are quality issues.

I really do hope they have a stable home. I think they do have too many brands, especially speakers and that area is in massive need of rationalization. I would be surprised if there are not major changes announced in the coming months.

One thing I really do believe is that there is a huge need for small elegant gear that sounds good and does not break the bank. I know our friends are not happy with what they are forced to use which is s sound bar and a small ghastly sub that is far from musical.

Some idiot MBA, and probably a bunch, have sold the idea that making bulky receivers with an intimidating bunch of terminals on the back and a bunch of power amps most would not use gives flexibility. Well it does not. Most would be really happy with a small two channel streaming device with a DAC that could connect to a TV and powered or active speakers of a size and style they want and also a sub if they want.
I know a lot of our close friends would be buying that and really enjoy it. Nothing of the sort exists and this is why we are in such a sorry mess and confronting our end game. This was ALL avoidable with good design and execution.

Always interested in "business" history somewhat. Plus have purchased my various Denons from the various eras.

Will be interesting what Samsung/Harman does. I don't expect no change at all. There are good 2ch choices in line with what you describe now, no reason for a soundbar unless silly WAF or lack of creativity is involved.

 

[TLS Guy]

Always interested in "business" history somewhat. Plus have purchased my various Denons from the various eras.

Will be interesting what Samsung/Harman does. I don't expect no change at all. There are good 2ch choices in line with what you describe now, no reason for a soundbar unless silly WAF or lack of creativity is involved.

I am not aware of any that are simple to use, handy and cost much less than AVR and have a small footprint. I know of nothing like I have in mind.

 

[lovinthehd]

I am not aware of any that are simple to use, handy and cost much less than AVR and have a small footprint. I know of nothing like I have in mind.

Hard to know what your parameters are. It exists. If an adult can operate a phone or modern operating system well, just what does "simple" mean?

 

[Eppie]

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[highfigh]

Not that simple. Sound United was owned by a private equity company controlled largely by Mitt Romney, and they wanted to cash out. Masimo paid far too much for it, and had not clue how to properly run it.

Mittens hasn't been involved in 15 years and he had nothing to do with SU. Not defending him, just trying to keep the facts straight.

Massimo buying SU is a classic case of "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should".

 

[dlaloum]

I think Drs Toole and Olive are basically correct, at least among classical listeners who have been to concerts and recitals. Pop Rock and to extent movies is another ball park, as there is no point of reference for human experience. A band full of electronic instruments can make any foul row they want and who is to know? There is zero point of reference.

I have built speakers for friends and colleagues over the years, and they have all counted them among their most prized possessions. So it is possible to understand what are the ingredients for really satisfying speakers.

Lastly I would say, that you need good measurements, but that is far from the end of it. What takes experience is where you put and apportion your power resources. This is the commonest pitfall that is so often ignored in commercial designs. Let me tell you it is not in the deep bass subwoofer range, far from it. Looking at speaker measurements will not give you a clue about that. However years of experience will give you a good idea by just looking at the speaker and crossover points. You can then gauge if the speaker will run out of gas and dynamically compress, or worse, vital parts of the musical spectrum.

And then there is the need to walk that fine line between loudness dynamic compression....

I always loved the way electrostatics could play ever so quietly, while being totally dynamic - whereas many many speakers, need to be "goosed" up to a certain volume level before they "come alive" - and then you are at risk of entering their compression zones....

Of course the down side was then that the ESL's never went very loud - 1812 overture cannons, were not their "forte" (and could result in destructive arcing lightshows)

And reality is - there are DIFFERENT perfect speakers for each individuals preferences.... Hence there is room in the marketplace for different compromises in an imperfect world - and the differing brands, with their different "signature sound" - are an opportunity to cover those varying market segments.

Yes.... signature sound exists - but ONLY in speakers.... in the rest of the audio chain, it's best characterised as "signature distortion"!

 

[dlaloum]

I am going to heartily disagree with this. While it may be true for you, it’s not true for everyone. I may concede that you shouldn’t chase teen frequencies at the expense of the overall system. But really? 25-30hz extension should be ignored? Cmon mark, have some fun.

In my case - they are a nice to have... the low extension below 25Hz.... but quite low on the priority table....

1. The midrange comes first - and with it imaging...
2. Getting down into the midbass 80Hz down to 30Hz provides a lot of the staging support, the immersion effect
3. Dynamics at low volume levels is (very) important - as this is where most of the listening happens... without the setup turned up to party levels.
4. Low frequency Sub-Audio extension probably comes next
5. High Volume SPL's are last (the setup needs to be able to produce 95db peaks at MLP... but more than that is of little import)

Now that priority list is my own (and there are other aspects of performance that could be included/inserted... this is just off the top of my head without too much head scratching).... I would bet that most contributors to the thread would have a different prioritisation to mine... and that's OK!

When I had electrostatic speakers, and reaching down into the bass was a constraint, the bass rose up my priorities list (probably up to #3 or #4).... But my current speakers reach down to 24Hz.... I really don't feel much need for sub-bass below that, except for movie effects....

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

In my case - they are a nice to have... the low extension below 25Hz.... but quite low on the priority table....

1. The midrange comes first - and with it imaging...
2. Getting down into the midbass 80Hz down to 30Hz provides a lot of the staging support, the immersion effect
3. Dynamics at low volume levels is (very) important - as this is where most of the listening happens... without the setup turned up to party levels.
4. Low frequency Sub-Audio extension probably comes next
5. High Volume SPL's are last (the setup needs to be able to produce 95db peaks at MLP... but more than that is of little import)

Now that priority list is my own (and there are other aspects of performance that could be included/inserted... this is just off the top of my head without too much head scratching).... I would bet that most contributors to the thread would have a different prioritisation to mine... and that's OK!

When I had electrostatic speakers, and reaching down into the bass was a constraint, the bass rose up my priorities list (probably up to #3 or #4).... But my current speakers reach down to 24Hz.... I really don't feel much need for sub-bass below that, except for movie effects....

I’d say that for the most part I agree with your list, and of utmost importance is use case. Of course some things might move here or there. My main point to Mark was that, for every listener, they are probably looking for something different, and his insistence that his thoughts are the only way, are only true for him. Even though others may agree, others don’t.
To your point, I wouldn’t chase single digits if not for having the rest of my system in order first. In my case, it is. So to ME, very deep bass matters. And while Mark experienced an obnoxious bass track in his example, they’re not all like that. Also, some movies like one called “DONT breathe”. It has a very active soundtrack, but some of the coolest parts are in quiet sections, where there is a very low teenish hz sound. It adds an ominous feel that’s not loud or obnoxious, but is also very palpable. I for one, love it. A quiet place is another one.(of course many others)
I have useable extension to about 14hz fwiw. For many movies, this may or may not matter(many have 30hz rolloff lol).
For music it mostly doesn’t. However I do listen to some electronic stuff that goes very low, and the tactile feeling is fun. For most music, the deep extension isn’t really relevant, but I’d rather have it and not need it, than wish I had it but don’t. lol.

 

[TLS Guy]

I’d say that for the most part I agree with your list, and of utmost importance is use case. Of course some things might move here or there. My main point to Mark was that, for every listener, they are probably looking for something different, and his insistence that his thoughts are the only way, are only true for him. Even though others may agree, others don’t.
To your point, I wouldn’t chase single digits if not for having the rest of my system in order first. In my case, it is. So to ME, very deep bass matters. And while Mark experienced an obnoxious bass track in his example, they’re not all like that. Also, some movies like one called “DONT breathe”. It has a very active soundtrack, but some of the coolest parts are in quiet sections, where there is a very low teenish hz sound. It adds an ominous feel that’s not loud or obnoxious, but is also very palpable. I for one, love it. A quiet place is another one.(of course many others)
I have useable extension to about 14hz fwiw. For many movies, this may or may not matter(many have 30hz rolloff lol).
For music it mostly doesn’t. However I do listen to some electronic stuff that goes very low, and the tactile feeling is fun. For most music, the deep extension isn’t really relevant, but I’d rather have it and not need it, than wish I had it but don’t. lol.

You are still not clear on my points. I am just listing what I consider to be good performance for the average AV consumer, that will give performance well above a sound bar and not clutter and spoil living spaces. This needs to be at prices that will lead people back into the market.

The crazy situation we have is that a two channel device with limited connectivity (no HDMI) for instance, costs more than an AV receiver with more channels than most need.

The fact is that sales are declining and the public at large rejecting what is on offer. Sound United and Yamaha are in a loosing proposition with home AV as we know it.

I like deep bass and my TLs will reproduce a 32' organ pipe without trouble and vibrate my chair at even very low volume. My point is that that is not essential for really a really satisfying audio experience. Good connectivity for one thing is much more important.
I do object to blasts of gratuitous bass that adds nothing to the story in movies.

The confounded MBAs and marketers have severely misjudged the market and now we are all paying the price.