Harman Kardon - would it help to add a power amp

[chromis]

I've done a search on the forum and around the internet, read reviews and such but I'm still at a loss to what type of amp I require or if I do.

I have a basic system

Harman Kardon Reciever 3840
B&W 603s
Hardman Kardon CD Player

I like the sound over all but wanted to give the whole unit a little more grunt (volume).

My question is: would it help to add a power amp to this system? If so what type would of power amp would do the trick? (under 1000 AUST)

If not what would you recommend I add or replace?

 

[Audioholics]

I assume you're talking about the 3480? Those B&W speakers are efficient, so I would spend my money on room treatment first. If you're simply concerned about volume, 2 x 120W is plenty and to spare for 603s unless your room is gigantic.

 

[annunaki]

Hawke is correct. I would not suggest any more power for the sake of your speakers. You would have to double the power output just to see a 3db increase in overall output which is rather miniscule. Room treatments would be a much better investment. That, or an increase in total surface area. (more, or larger speakers)

 

[Francious70]

You would have to double the power output just to see a 3db increase in overall output which is rather miniscule.

Miniscule?? 3dB is double the loudness. 3dB is the difference in enjoying your music and ratteling dishes out of the cabinet.

Paul

 

[Lincoln]

Miniscule?? 3dB is double the loudness. 3dB is the difference in enjoying your music and ratteling dishes out of the cabinet.

Paul

I'm sorry, you are wrong. 3db is just a small audible difference and it is exactly what doubling the power will yield. Think about this. Normal movie soundtrack volume is about 85db with 105db peaks, the difference between 85 and 88 is barely audible (this would be a doubling of power). Now give 10 times the power it takes to achieve 85db and then you'll have dishes rattling.

 

[annunaki]

Lincoln is right. A 3db change with music or movies is just barely noticed by most people. A 10db change is perceived doubling or halving of volume by most people.

 

[MDS]

3dB is a doubling of POWER.
6dB is a doubling of VOLTAGE.

Doubling the perceived loudness requires anywhere from +6dB to +10dB (perception of loudness varies with frequency). The general rule is 10dB, which as already stated requires 10x the power.

 

[chromis]

Yes sorry the HK 3480.

So adding a power amp of any kind will only produce 3db more.

Is this because the reciever I have would limit the output?

The room is small, probally around 5 metres by 6 and has wooden floors.

 

[Francious70]

I could have sworn after ~120dB every 3dB was a doubling of SPL. I can't find a chart for this, but I know that dB is logurithmic which would mean that after a certain level it would be double the SPL.

Paul

 

[Nick250]

Yes sorry the HK 3480.

So adding a power amp of any kind will only produce 3db more.

Is this because the reciever I have would limit the output?

The room is small, probally around 5 metres by 6 and has wooden floors.

I think you missing the point about the power of your reciever. You already have more power than you can possibly use. Even at the loudest you could ever want to listen you are probably tapping less than 20 to 30% of your reciever's capabilities, so what good is adding more power? Could you add more power? Sure. Could you hear a difference? No, except for the possible placebo effect.

IMHO, YMMV yadda, yadda.

Nick

 

[annunaki]

I could have sworn after ~120dB every 3dB was a doubling of SPL. I can't find a chart for this, but I know that dB is logurithmic which would mean that after a certain level it would be double the SPL.

Paul

Sorry, but that is incorrect. Like Anonymous stated, a 6db-10db gain (depending upon the individauls perception thresholds) equates to a doubling of perceived volume. To get a 10db increase one must add 10 times the power. So if one has a system reaching 100db with 100 watts it would require 1000 watts to reach 110db. To reach 103db it would require 200 watts, and 400 watts to 106db.

 

[chromis]

Yeah I find it hard to understand this stuff. It's just finding a way to understand it then I'm ok.

I'm comparing the system to an old Marantz with Wharedale speakers and a friends really basic sony system. I could crank the Marantz up and hear it a block away. My friends system, when they have a party, performs surpirsingly well. But this system. When I crank it up you can just feel like you cant crank it up anymore because it wont handle it.

When I turn it up to 19db (I thought the higher the db the louder? not the other way around) Anyway! it feels like that is the loudest it will go and you certainly couldnt leave the system inside on that volume and have a party outside. You cant even hear it outside.

Maybe I purchased the wrong system for what I wanted. But it sounded pretty good in the shop.

It honestly doesnt compare to my friends Sony all in one cheap-o (in comparision) system.

That's disappointing!

 

[PENG]

Your friend's Sony all in one system must have very efficient speakers. Still, with 2X120W into those relatively efficient 8 ohm 603 speakers, you have a lot of power.

Are you sure your receiver is set up properly? May be you should try resetting the processor to factory default setting. One thing to consider too, HK and B&W tend to be on the smooth and the so call "warm" side. That, by itself, may give you the feeling that the sound is not "loud" enough.

 

[chromis]

I'll go through setting it up again and see what happens.

Dont get me wrong, the sound is beautiful and crisp.

Just doesnt have the wow factor.

Thanks for your help...

 

[nm2285]

Most people who would buy that combination would think the refined sound IS the "wow" factor. I would say you just didn't get the right combo for you. If you need party speakers, there are plenty to be found cheap that will work fine and play loud (KLH, JBL, Cerwin Vega). Usually the refined speakers aren't meant to REALLY blast. Klipsch could be an exception.

 

[Nick250]

I'll go through setting it up again and see what happens.

Dont get me wrong, the sound is beautiful and crisp.

Just doesnt have the wow factor.

Thanks for your help...

You have hit on very important point here that a lot of folks just don't understand. Receivers DO NOT PROVIDE WOW FACTOR (except for the placebo effect). As long as your speakers are not clipping, the receiver has little to nothing to do with the sound you hear in your living room. You take a $500 receiver and hook it up to reasonably efficient $3000 speakers and you will have great sound. You take a $3000 receiver and hook it up to $300 speakers and those $300 speakers will sound exactly the same as when they were connected to the $500 receiver. Do you get my point here? It's speaker choice and room acoustics that one needs to focus on.

IMHO YMMV yadda, yadda.
Nick

 

[plhart]

chromis-

Do not add an extra power amp for all the reasons posted above by the responders to your intitial query.

The easiest way to get more overall stereo system volume is to add a subwoofer to take the low bass duties away from your B & Ws.

If your receiver allows your B & Ws to be set to "small" use that feature and you can choose the subwoofer of your choice. The small setting should take all frequencies below ~80Hz away from your B & Ws and allow them to play ~6dB louder without increasing overall system distortion.

If your receiver is a pure stereo receiver without a "small" (surround sound) setting you'll need to search for a subwoofer which has a switchable 80Hz high pass filter for your B & W's. I remember that some of the Velodynes had that feature but you'll have to do the leg work from here.

 

[annunaki]

Great point Plhart. Adding a subwoofer would be an excellent choice.

Nick250,

Remeber speakers do not "clip". Amplifiers do. Speakers can distort distort heavily due to amplifier clipping.

Chromis,

Distorted signals tend to sound louder than clean ones. The differences can be fairly significant too. Your 603's are great high fidelity low distortion units. This could be part the reason they do not sound as loud as your friends' systems. Also, your friends' systems may integrate into their rooms better (than yours does in your room), taking advantage of bass modes, thus increasing the "wow" factor. Essentially, in listening to their systems in their homes, you are evaluating how that syustem interacts with that actual room. Not that system itself. One of your friends' systems may or may not perform nearly as well in your room.

I would suggest a good 12" subwoofer as an addition to your system. Your receiver has dedicated subwoofer outputs, but I do not believe that it has a large/small switch or crossover. I may be wrong, consult your manual. I would suggest getting a sub with speaker level inputs.
Good Day

 

[chromis]

I would suggest a good 12" subwoofer as an addition to your system. Your receiver has dedicated subwoofer outputs, but I do not believe that it has a large/small switch or crossover. I may be wrong, consult your manual. I would suggest getting a sub with speaker level inputs.
Good Day

Thanks heaps guys, there's some great advice there. And I am understanding more as I go along.

Annunaki I think you are correct there doesnt appear to be a small switch. I read the manual https://www.hci-services.com/tech_doc/documents/harman kardon/Home/Electronics/HK/HK 3480/Owner's Manual/HK3480 English.pdf
and it doesnt comment on anything like that.

So I will look into 12" subwoofers then.

 

[chromis]

chromis-

Do not add an extra power amp for all the reasons posted above by the responders to your intitial query.

The easiest way to get more overall stereo system volume is to add a subwoofer to take the low bass duties away from your B & Ws.

If your receiver allows your B & Ws to be set to "small" use that feature and you can choose the subwoofer of your choice. The small setting should take all frequencies below ~80Hz away from your B & Ws and allow them to play ~6dB louder without increasing overall system distortion.

If your receiver is a pure stereo receiver without a "small" (surround sound) setting you'll need to search for a subwoofer which has a switchable 80Hz high pass filter for your B & W's. I remember that some of the Velodynes had that feature but you'll have to do the leg work from here.

The Velodynes you might be talking about are the HGS-12 http://www.lenwallisaudio.com.au/products/details.php?pid=334
They are 4599 AUST. That's just a tad over my budget.

Any other brands I should be looking at?