Guys - Please help me decide my 5.1 speaker system

[naren2512]

@ AcuDefTechGuy

I will surely try Deftech gems again in the pure direct mode

@ Others

I came across a couple of more speaker brands which i think i should keep on my " to Audition list" and most likely i am auditioning them over the wee end

1) KEF Q100 - I heard them as 2.0 and they were sounding good, it was a brief demo of like 5 mins so couldn't make out much but i must say the first impression of was very good. So will try to re-audition them as 2.0 and also audition them as 5.1 to get idea how they sound for movies.

2) Quad 11L2 - Have seen good reviews on net that these are neutral and very good sounding speakers. will audition them to see how i find them for music and movies both

Any idea how these compare with PSB Image B6 and Deftech mythos gems? any owners wanting to share their experience?

3) I see a lot of people advise to audition the speakers as 2.0 for music and if you like music then the speakers have to sound good for movies too because music is hard to re-product. But honestly earlier i only tried to see how the speakers sound for movies as i will be using them more for movies, my question here is why do we say so ? is the sound needed for Music and Movies completely different or same ? because for music everything will come from 2.0 while for movies all speakers have to be functional to give a good surround effect so may be we would want all speakers to be in synch ( timber matching ?) or is it so that speakers that sound good will by default be good at all parameters ?

Your answers to above will be really helpful for my next auditions. Thanks a ton guys !

Regards,
Naren

 

[3db]

@ AcuDefTechGuy

I will surely try Deftech gems again in the pure direct mode

@ Others

I came across a couple of more speaker brands which i think i should keep on my " to Audition list" and most likely i am auditioning them over the wee end

1) KEF Q100 - I heard them as 2.0 and they were sounding good, it was a brief demo of like 5 mins so couldn't make out much but i must say the first impression of was very good. So will try to re-audition them as 2.0 and also audition them as 5.1 to get idea how they sound for movies.

2) Quad 11L2 - Have seen good reviews on net that these are neutral and very good sounding speakers. will audition them to see how i find them for music and movies both

Any idea how these compare with PSB Image B6 and Deftech mythos gems? any owners wanting to share their experience?

3) I see a lot of people advise to audition the speakers as 2.0 for music and if you like music then the speakers have to sound good for movies too because music is hard to re-product. But honestly earlier i only tried to see how the speakers sound for movies as i will be using them more for movies, my question here is why do we say so ? is the sound needed for Music and Movies completely different or same ? because for music everything will come from 2.0 while for movies all speakers have to be functional to give a good surround effect so may be we would want all speakers to be in synch ( timber matching ?) or is it so that speakers that sound good will by default be good at all parameters ?

Your answers to above will be really helpful for my next auditions. Thanks a ton guys !

Regards,
Naren

Those are all good speaker choices. Now you just hae to see what "fits" your ear the best.


About the music verses Home Theater audition... I my opinion, movie soundtracks have alot of artiicial sound in them, like bullets whizzing by or gunshots. I don't know about you but when isthe last time you heard a bullet whiz buy your ears? Heard an alien take a lazer and seals one arteries as he's slicing one's head off witha laser? Do you know what it actually sounds like? I don't. So my first point about using HT sound trackas as a demo is that the sound your listening too is artificial and based on what we think is real, compared to that of musical instruments which IS real.

The 2nd pitfall about HT is directivity. Since you have a number of channels all pushing out sound and immersing the listener in sound, one looses the ability to discern how accurate a sound stage can be placed by the front main speakers. The better the sound staging by the front speakers, the better the immersive feeling one will get in HT. Good speakers will be able to throw a detailed and almost holographic soundstage through just the left/right speakers. In my setup, if I disconnected my center channel, I would not be able to tell that it wasn't playing (on axes) because my Let/right speakers image so well. It sonly when I move off center by 20 degrees or more can I tell that the center has been turned off.

I hope this helps.

 

[naren2512]

This is definitely helpful. Thanks a ton !

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yeah, a lot of systems will sound great for movies because the movie soundtracks don't really have to be "accurate". You have bomb exploding and all kinds of surround ambience throwing around so your brain cannot pinpoint a whole lot.

For for 2.0 music, there is nothing else interfering.

When I audition speakers, I never even do 5.1. It is 100% 2.0.

I think even a Bose system sounds pretty decent for movies.

 

[naren2512]

I think even a Bose system sounds pretty decent for movies.

This brought smile on my face

 

[naren2512]

Hi Friends,

I auditioned two systems yesterday, as advised by you guys I focused more on how the system sounds as 2.0 for music wit AVR set in pure direct mode , than just trying system as 5.1 for movies and below is the summary of my demos :

1) KEF Q series :

I wanted to audition KEF as 5.1 but the dealer dint have the rears and sub so he had me try (KEF Q100 in fronts, ProFX rears and Sub and KEF Qi series center ) with Denon 1911 AVR and Denon DVD player

Movies - I found the sound to be bright and it was putting strain on my ears in most of the scenes of Air Force One so i knew in first 10 mins that i am not liking this system

Music - I had him play 2.0 speakers with AVR on pure direct mode and played my own mp3 CD in his Denon DVD player and also tried to play my i pod using the front USB of Denon. The SQ was not impressive at all dont know how i found them to be good the other day !!

The sales guy said the usual thing - The speakers are new they will get better once they burn in so i too gave him usual answer that i will come back in 3 weeks to re-audition and headed to the PSB dealer.

2) PSB Image ( B6*2, B5*2, C5, 5i sub, Pioneer blue ray plaer, Denon 1911 AVR with front cross over set at 80hz and sub crossover disabled i.e the dial was kept at 0 which is found in front of 5i Sub)

They had taken out the grills of all speakers coz with grilles the dont sound too good it feels as if there is some layer bet the speakers and our ears stopping them to perform them at their best.

Movies - I found it to be much better than KEF, the sound was non fatiguing and it wasnt bright at all, however in some of the scenes of "Air Force One" I found that the speakers were little extra soft ( this was exactly opposite to my experience of trying B5,C5,B4 earlier when i found that the speakers were not sounding good at hight volume and putting strain on my ears, so my current experience makes me think that either the setting of AVR during my last audition werent correct of the AVR not a good match .. it was Onkyo 608)


Music - Had him play my mp3 cd in pure direct mode, and tried Hotel Caifornia, Right here waiting for you - Richard Marx and the sound quality was very good and much better than KEF.

I would have loved to try a couple other modes of movies and a song or two more to get better idea about SQ but it was already 9pm and time for him to shut to shop so we had to end it there :-(

My Concerns -
I) I noticed one thing that they had played the movie in "Multi Channel Stereo mode" and when I had him change it to the "Dolby digital mode" ( it reads as something else on Denon display screen ) the sound quality deteriorated - it felt like speakers were not able to perform at their best (.. kind of a feeling we get when trying some real good / big towers with a less powerful amp )

Could you guys tell me if its ok to see movies in " Multi Channel Stereo " mode or that mode is meant for music only to play music in surround mode ? could this be AVR matching issue?

II) In some of the scenes speakers were sounding little extra soft - Is that a expected thing from any Neutral sounding speakers like PSB Image bookshelves? or is it that softness may reduce over the period of time?


PS - I am most likely going to audition QUAD lite HTIB and Quad 11L2 based 5.1 tomorrow and i will share my experience with you guys and seek your guidance for deciding my speakers

Regards,
Naren

 

[GranteedEV]

Movies - I found the sound to be bright and it was putting strain on my ears in most of the scenes of Air Force One so i knew in first 10 mins that i am not liking this system

Perhaps that's a bright scene. How do you know? I return to 3db's comment on how movies are artificial and non-indicative.

Music - I had him play 2.0 speakers with AVR on pure direct mode and played my own mp3 CD in his Denon DVD player and also tried to play my i pod using the front USB of Denon. The SQ was not impressive at all dont know how i found them to be good the other day !!

Auditioning with mp3s is a bad idea. Good speakers will show you why mp3s sound bad.

The sales guy said the usual thing - The speakers are new they will get better once they burn in so i too gave him usual answer that i will come back in 3 weeks to re-audition and headed to the PSB dealer.

Total B.S. They'll sound the same 3 weeks later. You might just be in a different mood, bring different audition material, or what have you.

They had taken out the grills of all speakers coz with grilles the dont sound too good it feels as if there is some layer bet the speakers and our ears stopping them to perform them at their best.

Good grille cloth should have minimal effect on audio quality. At most it might take away a db of ultra high frequency.

Movies - I found it to be much better than KEF, the sound was non fatiguing and it wasnt bright at all, however in some of the scenes of "Air Force One" I found that the speakers were little extra soft ( this was exactly opposite to my experience of trying B5,C5,B4 earlier when i found that the speakers were not sounding good at hight volume and putting strain on my ears, so my current experience makes me think that either the setting of AVR during my last audition werent correct of the AVR not a good match .. it was Onkyo 608)

Perhaps the speaker is soft, or perhaps the scene is soft and those KEFs are bright. Again, how do you know if it's not something you've heard in real life?

And what if it's the room? Was it the same room and placement you auditioned with?

Music - Had him play my mp3 cd in pure direct mode, and tried Hotel Caifornia, Right here waiting for you - Richard Marx and the sound quality was very good and much better than KEF.

That's good to hear, but it could be that the speakers aren't revealing the mediocrity of the MP3. I would really use all FLAC or CD for any audition.


My Concerns -

I) I noticed one thing that they had played the movie in "Multi Channel Stereo mode" and when I had him change it to the "Dolby digital mode" ( it reads as something else on Denon display screen ) the sound quality deteriorated - it felt like speakers were not able to perform at their best (.. kind of a feeling we get when trying some real good / big towers with a less powerful amp )

Multi channel stereo is party mode. It surrounds you with the same sounds coming from different directions. It's undesirable for anything but a drunken party.

Could you guys tell me if its ok to see movies in " Multi Channel Stereo " mode or that mode is meant for music only to play music in surround mode ? could this be AVR matching issue?

It's meant for filling a room with noise during parties for people whose stereo mains are inadequate. It does also give a bit smoother coverage depending on where you're sitting. But in general it's one of those things you should avoid.

II) In some of the scenes speakers were sounding little extra soft - Is that a expected thing from any Neutral sounding speakers like PSB Image bookshelves? or is it that softness may reduce over the period of time?

Does it sound softer than real life, or softer than a speaker? Ask yourself this. That's how you will know. If it only sounds softer than a speaker, then you're just used to the harshness or forwardness of speakers. If something sounds fundamentally wrong, then it's the speaker's voicing altering the source.

So is there a Revel dealer anywhere near you? You ought to audition some F12s and the matching C12 Center channel.

 

[naren2512]

Hi Friends,

I had got busy with the work however I am back now and I got some time last week and I auditioned / re-auditioned a few systems that included :

1) Quad BS ( 11L2 *2, 9L2*2 & L2 center )
2) Monitor Audio Silver 5.1 system
3) PSB Image BS ( B6*2, C5 center, B5*2)
4) Paradigm Titan Monitors ( with paradigm CC2** center, ADP surrounds)

I had opportunity to audition PSB Multiple times and I found :

=> B6 and C5 together making a very wide sound stage, and i couldnt make out where the sound coming from and it was kind of keeping me involved and making me feel part of scenes being played on the screen

=> The dialogs/ vocals from C5 center we extremely clear

=> I felt that the speakers were very easy on my ears and i could watch a couple of movies back to back without getting listener fatigue. They were not too soft or bright and they were just find.. just the way the should be.

I think I have liked PSB speakers more than any other speakers and have almost made my mind for these ones. However I need your advise before i make a purchase :

1) Do you think that for my room size of 22*10*9 feet PSB Image B6 for front and C5 center will be good enough to fill my room ?

2) Do surrounds make too much of a difference? Is there going to be too much of a difference between usual mono-polar surrounds (e.g. Image B5) and bi-polar surrounds ( Image S5) ?

3) If I decide to go with Mono-polar should i go with Image B5 or B4 for my room size?

4) What is the maximum distance from the listener at which we can mount / keep the surrounds in a a 5.1 ( my viewing distance is going to be about 16 feet with above mentioned room size)

Thanks for your help guys

Regards,
Naren

 

[GranteedEV]

1) Do you think that for my room size of 22*10*9 feet PSB Image B6 for front and C5 center will be good enough to fill my room ?

eh... "filling a room" isn't necessarily the issue, but I think dynamics would be compressed....for stereo mains I'd go for the T6 towers even if it means sacrificing a center and surrounds for the time being.

2) Do surrounds make too much of a difference? Is there going to be too much of a difference between usual mono-polar surrounds (e.g. Image B5) and bi-polar surrounds ( Image S5) ?

The difference is huge. Personally I think Monopoles are the way to go, as di-poles give a fake effect IMO.

3) If I decide to go with Mono-polar should i go with Image B5 or B4 for my room size?

Whatever can cross over at 80hz.

4) What is the maximum distance from the listener at which we can mount / keep the surrounds in a a 5.1 ( my viewing distance is going to be about 16 feet with above mentioned room size)

That again depends on the output capabilities of your surrounds.

 

[jostenmeat]

1) Do you think that for my room size of 22*10*9 feet PSB Image B6 for front and C5 center will be good enough to fill my room ?

2) Do surrounds make too much of a difference? Is there going to be too much of a difference between usual mono-polar surrounds (e.g. Image B5) and bi-polar surrounds ( Image S5) ?

3) If I decide to go with Mono-polar should i go with Image B5 or B4 for my room size?

4) What is the maximum distance from the listener at which we can mount / keep the surrounds in a a 5.1 ( my viewing distance is going to be about 16 feet with above mentioned room size)

1) For this budget, for speakers that look at home in a living room, yes.

2) IMO, the difference is subtle, and this is coming from someone who changed from PSB monopole side surrounds to PSB bipole side surrounds. (I was prompted by the AH article on calibrating for a multi-row theater, where the writer suggested that bipoles should have better coverage over two rows, yet even after trying I describe it as subtle; I do have rear speakers too.)

3) Oh definitely the B5. (IMO, the question isn't B5 or B4, it should be B6 or B5, and also please note that the B6 has higher sensitivity than the B5, and the B5 has higher sensitivity than the B4.)

4) Impossible to answer without much more information. I wouldn't worry about anyways, right now.

 

[naren2512]

The difference is huge. Personally I think Monopoles are the way to go, as di-poles give a fake effect IMO.

Hi Buddy,

Can you clarify as to if you meant bi-poles give face effect or di-poles? i am actually having to choose between mono-poles and bi-poles that will be rear speakers for my 5.1 setup and i wont have a 7.1 setup

 

[naren2512]

1)

2) IMO, the difference is subtle, and this is coming from someone who changed from PSB monopole side surrounds to PSB bipole side surrounds. (I was prompted by the AH article on calibrating for a multi-row theater, where the writer suggested that bipoles should have better coverage over two rows, yet even after trying I describe it as subtle; I do have rear speakers too.)

Thanks for this information it makes it much more helpful if its coming from someone who has actually tried both the speakers i.e bi-polar and mono-polar in the same setup.

One more question though as my setup will be a 5.1 and not a 7.1, and if i have understood your post correctly i think it shount make too much of a difference if i use bi-polar or mono-polar for surrounds even in 5.1.. isnt it ?

 

[3db]

I'm using monopoles for surrounds (5.1 set-up) , PSB Image 1Bs (two models back from what you are purchasing and I'm pleased with the soundstage they throw. I don't have any experience with bi/dipoles but from what I'm hearing based on my system, I'm not going to spend extra for the bi/dipole expereince. Movies like U51 when the rivots are biginning to pop sounds so eerily real....I shudder.

 

[jostenmeat]

One more question though as my setup will be a 5.1 and not a 7.1, and if i have understood your post correctly i think it shount make too much of a difference if i use bi-polar or mono-polar for surrounds even in 5.1.. isnt it ?

IMO, and I do say opinion because others feel it does have significant impact, it would be even less important in your situation as I assume you are like 99% of the folks with one row.

So, I often recommend monopoles for the following reason. They are normally* much less money than the matching bipoles. I would submit usually a doubling of the price (if not more in some cases). If that saved few hundred dollars or whatever it is lets the buyer move up to the next line of speaker, well IMO, the overall impact should be much greater. 99% of your audio is coming from your front three (with the center given a tremendous part of that 99% as well).

Now if you have money to burn, you already have the front three that you want, sure you could try some bipoles for fun. But I don't think you've bought anything yet, so that's my advice . . .

 

[naren2512]

IMO, and I do say opinion because others feel it does have significant impact, it would be even less important in your situation as I assume you are like 99% of the folks with one row.

So, I often recommend monopoles for the following reason. They are normally* much less money than the matching bipoles. I would submit usually a doubling of the price (if not more in some cases). If that saved few hundred dollars or whatever it is lets the buyer move up to the next line of speaker, well IMO, the overall impact should be much greater. 99% of your audio is coming from your front three (with the center given a tremendous part of that 99% as well).

Now if you have money to burn, you already have the front three that you want, sure you could try some bipoles for fun. But I don't think you've bought anything yet, so that's my advice . . .

Thanks buddy

I think i will go for mono-polars in that case.. and those will be probably B5 and not B4 as suggested by other forum member in earlier post.

Regards,
Naren

 

[zieglj01]

Monopole will work good.

 

[naren2512]

Dear friends,

I must say forums like these are very useful and you guys are great.

Seems like i dont need to think anymore i will go head and order the mono-polars for surrounds.

So below is what I am going to order in a week or so :

PSB IMage B6 * 2 - for Fronts
PSB Image C5 - Center
PSB Image B5 * 2 (these are mono-polar)- for Rears

Sub I will add at a later stage may be in next 6 mths.

AVR - I have already bought Onkyo 608 as i got a good deal on this one last month

Now my next two questions will be on :

1) Wires - Do different speaker wires make the same speakers sound differnt? or can I go with any speaker wires with good thickness / wire gague ? can you suggest which will be value for money wires?

2) Placement for rears - I think the ideal placement is one feet above and 2 feet behind the listener. However this placement may be little difficult in my living room, because i wont be able to put the speakers on stand will be wall monting them so wall mounting at that hight will create problem when some one is passing from the listening area towards the back of the room i.e towards the window on the rear wall etc.

So I was thinking of below options :

2.a) either wall mount rears one or two feet behind the listening area but at the hight of say 6 or 7 feet and then tilt the speakers down so thaat they face the listener..

2.b) Or wall mount the speakers on side walls at the height 1 or 2 feet above the listener but at a distance of about say 5 or 6 feet which is where my side wall ends.

Kindly suggest which of above may be a good option or if you can give any other alternative options those too are welcome


Thanks again for help so far.

Regards,
Naren

 

[3db]

Dear friends,

I must say forums like these are very useful and you guys are great.

Seems like i dont need to think anymore i will go head and order the mono-polars for surrounds.

So below is what I am going to order in a week or so :

PSB IMage B6 * 2 - for Fronts
PSB Image C5 - Center
PSB Image B5 * 2 (these are mono-polar)- for Rears

Sub I will add at a later stage may be in next 6 mths.

AVR - I have already bought Onkyo 608 as i got a good deal on this one last month

Now my next two questions will be on :

1) Wires - Do different speaker wires make the same speakers sound differnt? or can I go with any speaker wires with good thickness / wire gague ? can you suggest which will be value for money wires?

Hell no.... I say that with emphasys to fight off any potential audiophools claimin that they can hear differences in cables. Speaker gauge to be used is determined by the length of the cable run. The longer the cable, the the thicker the gauge needed. How long are your cable runs going to be? I went to Walmart and purchased a 50` role of 14 gauge wire for $30 bucks.. and it works just fine. You will do better by going to a Home Depot and buying lamp chord . I was being shallow and didn't like the look of lamp chord. but it works great.

2) Placement for rears - I think the ideal placement is one feet above and 2 feet behind the listener. However this placement may be little difficult in my living room, because i wont be able to put the speakers on stand will be wall monting them so wall mounting at that hight will create problem when some one is passing from the listening area towards the back of the room i.e towards the window on the rear wall etc.

So I was thinking of below options :

2.a) either wall mount rears one or two feet behind the listening area but at the hight of say 6 or 7 feet and then tilt the speakers down so thaat they face the listener..

2.b) Or wall mount the speakers on side walls at the height 1 or 2 feet above the listener but at a distance of about say 5 or 6 feet which is where my side wall ends.

Kindly suggest which of above may be a good option or if you can give any other alternative options those too are welcome
,
Naren

I'm running with option A because of room layout problems and I still very much enjoy the surround sound experience. I found no detrement to sound.
I use these speaker mount brackets from B-Tech which others in this forum can vouch for. They work great.

http://www.pinpointmounts.com/am40.html

If you go with option B, remember that your Onkyo will calibrate your surrounds distance away from the listener so that won't be an issue.

 

[jostenmeat]

Unless this is primarily for mch music, which I just highly doubt, I would consider skipping on the surrounds (please call them surrounds, side surrounds, but not rears, and definitely don't plug the speaker wires into where it says "rears" on the receiver, and I won't get into they why's) in favor of getting the subwoofer sooner. OTOH, waiting on the sub may give you extra time to research subwoofer(s), as the surround choice seems to be relatively easy at this point. But if this is for movies, sub is key (unless perhaps you live in an apartment).

1. "value for money"
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10239&cs_id=1023901&p_id=2817&seq=1&format=2

2. Why did you only include distance to speakers for the second scenario, and not the first? Do we assume that the 2b has them at 90 degrees? Do we assume both scenarios to have symmetrical layouts? How many seats across is the viewing position? Picture is worth a thousand words.

You see, 1-2 ft behind you without any information on distance means that angles cannot be calculated. The angle is probably the most important item in knowing how to place multiple speakers.

However, I would likely agree with 2a as well because with a 5.1 system, it would be ideal to have the side surrounds straddle the side and rear zones. It's in a 7.1 system that you'd want the side surrounds to be closer to 90 degrees.

 

[naren2512]

Hi Friends,

I need some serious advise and help here !!!

I have made my mind for PSB Image bookshelves and already own an ONKYO 608 AVR.

Now the problem is that the specs of the PSB Image speakers suggest this: Impedance - Nominal 6 Ohms, Minimum 4 Ohms

While the specs of my AVR ( Onkyo 608 ) suggest : Speaker Impedance - 6 ohms–16 ohms

My questions are :

1) Is it nominal impedence or the minimum impedence that is important to be considered for Speaker - AVR matching?

2) Can my AVR drive the Image book shelves properly ?

3) Is there a possibility that my AVR can damage ? and hence will I have to be careful about at what volume I play them at ?

4) or do I necessarily need a 4 ohms AVR ? ( it will be too costly option to sell Onkyo 608 and buy another AVR as i bought 608 from US and hence it cost me less and if i have to buy another one it will have to be from my country i.e India and AVRS here are atleast twice as expensive as in the US )

Thank you very much for your help in advance

Regards,
Naren