Guys - Please help me decide my 5.1 speaker system

[naren2512]

Hi Audiophiles,

I need some help from you folks for my 5.1 speaker system. I am very new to this whole HT speaker system idea and do not have any technical knowledge like many of you must have hence it may be best to consult you guys for deciding my system. I am planning to buy this speaker system for my living hall, I am going to use this system 70% for movies and 30% for Music.

My living hall measures : 22feet ( length ) * 10 feet ( breadth) * 9 feet ( height) - the viewing distance is around 14 feet from front wall where the Plasma screen will be placed.

I have a few questions/ doubts for the speakers and AVR which i hope to get solved with the help of all of the experts here are :

1) Fronts - I am looking at bookshelves bookshelves. I have liked PSB Image B5, PSB Image B6, MA BX2 and Deftech mythos gems ( but i think i may not like deftech if i watch Action movie for extended hours - would you agree? ).

Which one amongst the three would you recommend me to go for? My budget would be not more than 600$ a pair and I think i would like to choose speakers which dont hurt my ears if i watch an action movie for 2 hours but at the same time the speakers should have clear and crisp sound

2) I have shortlisted three centers here - PSB C5, MA BX center and Aperion Intimus C5. Please can you advise which one amongst these may be good center channel which can deliver lively, clear vocals? and is it necessary to choose the center channels and fronts of the same company / brand or i can choose the fronts and center of two different brands ? many say we should timber match the fronts and center so my question here would be will Aperion center be atleast a close match with these three different type of fronts ?

3) AVR - I have read good reviews about Denon 1911, Onkyo 608, Yamaha 667. Which one amongst these would be good for above mentioned speakers and will a good AVR be good for all speakers or one need to select the AVR based on what speakers he chooses?

4) Surrounds and Sub - I think i should ask about this after i decide my fronts, center and AVR

Appreciate you to have read my questions / doubts above and hope to be able to decide on my speaker with your help soon.

Regards,
Naren

 

[naren2512]

21 reviews but not replies :-( Guys i really need to decide soon so I will be thankful for your ideas / views.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

PSB speakers have been known for flat (accurate) frequency response. I notice they tend to have a +/- 2.0 dB frequency response tolerance, which is quite good.

The NHT Absolute Zero speakers' frequency response are even more flat & accurate per Home Theater Magazine measurement: +0.82/-0.94dB from 200Hz - 10kHz (5-point avg). Thus the tolerance for the Absolute Zero is +0.82/-0.94 dB, which absolutely amazing.

So I would get the Absolute Zero, if I were buying bookshelf speakers right now.

But I think PSB would be just fine.

I used to power a NHT SuperZero system with a 50 watts per channel receiver, and it sounded great.

 

[digicidal]

Not that I think there's anything wrong with the offerings of either NHT or PSB - they were two of my top picks as well. But if you're willing to give them a 30 day trial (at no expense other than time) - I would recommend giving the Aperion Verus Grand Bookshelves a try. I find them fairly laid back and very accurate sounding - and although I'm not sure about your ears... I've listened to music fairly loud for about 3 hours followed by a couple of movies back to back... and I would have kept going if I didn't have to work the next afternoon.

Just another option... I was really leaning towards the PSB Image series myself and basically just decided to give Aperion a try since they have such a fantastic audition/upgrade policy. From what I've heard so far (only had them 3 days now so not a 'seasoned' review yet), coupled with the reviews on this site.... I don't see myself using that 30 day return policy. Although I might use the 1yr 100% credit upgrade option - or use the bookshelves as surrounds. After hearing them and the center... I absolutely have to have the towers now.

 

[naren2512]

@ AcuDefTechGuy - Thanks for the reply and the info on NHT Speakers.

@ digicidal - Thanks for sharing you view and congrats about your purchse of " Verus Grand Bookshelf ". I am not from the US hence unfortunately i can not think of buying anything keeping return policy in mind, so whatever i buy i have to use it :-( My friend is there for 2-3 weeks and he can bring the speakers for me from there if i buy them before he comes back.

Since you have tried PSB and Verus Grand both, can you share some more information as to what difference you found in both and what makes Verus better than PSB? this will help me get some more idea about Verus. Also do you think that the SQ diff is significant enough to justlify the price diffrence of 100$ ( Verus is 600$ a pair and PSB IMage B6 500$ a pair)

Other Experts here - Please can you help me with my other two questions posted in my above post on choosing an AVR and using a center speaker of different company.

Thanks for your help!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

For receivers, I would pick the Denon mainly because it looks the best and may have the better reliability record of the 3 brands; I think all three will sound the same.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

For Center and Surround, I would just get 5 identical bookshelf speakers + a sub for a 5.1 system.

Identical speakers will give you the best timbre-matching since they are identical.

And I think vertical speakers sound better than horizontal speakers, which is the reason you just don't find many horizontal main front left and right speakers.

So why not get a vertical center speaker also?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

but i think i may not like deftech if i watch Action movie for extended hours - would you agree?

I own Def Tech speakers, and I usually watch movies for many, many hours at a time @ 85-90dB volume without any kind of listener fatigue, etc.

I actually watch movies a lot more than I listen to music.

 

[jm78]

My next speakers are probably going to be ascend acoustics cmt-340se lcr and cbm-170se surrounds. I really want neutral flat speakers. My last speakers were infinity primus, I think the p362's had a midbass bump.

Don't know how the ascend speakers sound but owners seem to be pleased. You could try a pair first and would only lose about $60 in shipping if you ended up not liking it.

 

[naren2512]

@ AcuDefTechGuy - Appreciate your help and thanks for the info you have shared so far. A few more question which you may be able to help with :

1) Have you tried these as well - MA BX2, PSB Image B6, Aperion Verus Grand book shelves? If yes can you tell me how these sound in terms of SQ when compared with Deftech. ( What i want to which ones amongst these are warmer/neutral/bright and which onese may be good for only movies, only music or both etc and how do the compare with each other )

2) Will Denon 1911 in your opinion pair well with all of the speakers mentioend above

Thanks for your help and have a great day ahead !

 

[digicidal]

Since you have tried PSB and Verus Grand both, can you share some more information as to what difference you found in both and what makes Verus better than PSB? this will help me get some more idea about Verus. Also do you think that the SQ diff is significant enough to justlify the price diffrence of 100$ ( Verus is 600$ a pair and PSB IMage B6 500$ a pair)

I personally do think so - which is why I chose the Aperions. However, that being said I have to admit that I haven't heard the PSB's in the same setting (so I can't comment on a direct comparison fairly). What I can say from my experience as well as what information I culled from numerous reviews and FR charts is that both the PSBs and the Verus are very accurate speakers with little 'character' of their own. I would also say that the PSBs dig a little deeper in the bass and perhaps extend a little farther in the treble on-axis. I feel that the Verus are however, more even in off-axis tonality than the PSBs - but again that's not a tested hypothesis, just something I've gathered from my time spent listening to the Verus and viewing charts for both.

In my opinion, the primary differences as far as sound is concerned are minimal and either speaker would be a recommended purchase and should make for excellent, fatigue-free listening... I would have to say that the aesthetics alone in my mind were worth the premium of the Aperion speakers over the PSBs. I've read many reviews stating that the Image series vinyl is of very high quality - but that just wasn't going to cut it for me this time around. I realize it's been stated in the review on this site as well as numerous other places, but when you first pull the velvet sleeves off the Aperions.... you feel like you've just dropped $1500 on standmounts... not $600.

I have no doubts that, catastrophes aside, the finish of the Verus will be just as beautiful 10 years from now as it is today. I realize that it doesn't have anything to do with the actual acoustics involved... but the psychoacoustic benefits are worth more than the $100 extra I had to pay. Whether or not you feel the same is up to you.

Good luck, and I'm sure that either way you go... you'll really enjoy the sound.

 

[naren2512]

@digicidal -

Thanks for sharing your experiance and info, could you tell me which center, rears and AVR are you using with the Verus Grand?

For AVR I was leaning towards Onkyo 608 but many people seem to have good or rather better things to say about Denon 1911 so I am lil confused over AVR at the moment.

Also for Center i have read very good reviews about the Vetical Array technology centers by Aperion so i was thinking of to use Aperion center and combine them with whichever fronts i decide from MA, PSB however many say that center from different company may not pair well with fronts ( PSB / MA) that is actually what make me look at Verus Grand..

I think you know now from above that i am gettin increasingly confused :-(

 

[3db]

@digicidal -

Thanks for sharing your experiance and info, could you tell me which center, rears and AVR are you using with the Verus Grand?

For AVR I was leaning towards Onkyo 608 but many people seem to have good or rather better things to say about Denon 1911 so I am lil confused over AVR at the moment.

Also for Center i have read very good reviews about the Vetical Array technology centers by Aperion so i was thinking of to use Aperion center and combine them with whichever fronts i decide from MA, PSB however many say that center from different company may not pair well with fronts ( PSB / MA) that is actually what make me look at Verus Grand..

I think you know now from above that i am gettin increasingly confused :-(

Chiming up here, the one thing you DON'T want to do is mix brnads across teh left, right, and center channel. That makes for a bad timbre match and when sounds pan across from left to right and visa versa, the unmatcehd speaker will stick out like a sore thumb. Keep your front speakers from teh same line of the same manufacturer.

Now being a huge PSB fan from owning a PSB Image home thetaer suite of speakers that also plays double duty for seriou smusic litening, I can tell you that off axes response for their Image series is VERY good. The Image series in general is very neutral, with nice revealing highs without sounding bright or harsh, great mids and nice tight clean bass. They image better than most speakers in their price range and their linearity makes them very dynamic being able to play a soft and very loud without that annoying pitch change that some speakers have when performing the same feat.

They may not use furniture grade material but IHO, speakers are more about the sound then the looks. I'd rather have a pair of less handsome speakers that get the sound right then some pretty speakers that color the sound.

From personal experience, the Image series is very revealing. Play a poor recording and you will get poor sound. Play a great recording however and be prepared to be blown away by rich detailed sound. They hide nothing which is what a great speaker will do.


To audition speakers, a systematic approach is the best way of determining which is right for you.

What I would do is to take a pad of paper with you, write down the make and
model of each speaker you audition and what you liked and disliked about the
speakers you were auditioning. Was the bass tight and deep or was it boomy and loose sounding? Were the mids life like or were they hollow or just too pronounced? Was the treble irritating and harsh or were they dark and not revealing or were they smooththat made you want to listen for more? How was the imaging?

Bring music with you that you are very familiar with and know quite well. To
make it easier to audition HT speaker systems, listen to the main speakers in 2
channel mode with music. Music is much harder to reproduce accurately then a movie soundtrack so if the speakers do well with music, then they will do well with HT. Speakers that do HT well may not do well with music. When auditioning the center channel of the same brand and series as the main speakers, pick a difficult source like an announcer that mumbles alot. If you can understand what the mumbling announcer is saying, then you have a good center channel.

I would go to speciality stores first and start auditioning speakers first
instead of going to the internet first. Once your likes are determined, you can
mention them here and fellow members can make internet brand recommendations based on your likes/dislikes. The specality stores are better setup acousticaly then the big box stores which will make auditioning a little easier. It will give you an idea of what you like in a speaker.

Keep track of what amp or receiver is powering the speakers you're auditioning. Try to get a receiver/amp that closest resembles what you have or want to get. It just reduces another variable when audtioning speakers.


One thing to keep note off. When auditioning speakers, make sure the volume
levels are matched between the diiferent speaker pairs because the louder
speaker pair will always sound better. Listen to levels that you think you
would listen to most of the time because thats how you are going to be using
them most of the time.

 

[naren2512]

@3db

Thanks a ton your post, it is very informative and helpful.

I too am of the same opinion as you are, I give more importance to the sound quality than looks and I have actually auditioned a few systems and below is the summary:

Initially I looked at a few satellite speakers ( HTIBs) such as Energy Take 5, Q acoustics 2000 Cinema (uk based company), Mirage MX 5.1, Paradigm Cinema 110 CT etc but i found they were putting some strain on my ears and some how i dint find them to be the ones that will make me say " wow these are the speakers i was looking for" then some one suggested that I should look for bookshelves or floor standers as satellites are always a compromise

I can’t opt for floor standers as that would take a lot of space so option remained was book shelves (my living room size is 22*10*9 feet )


Then I tried below in same order ( for all of these I used "Air Force one" and a couple of songs which were in mp3 format )

1) Deftech (Deftech mythos gem*4 + Deftech center 7 + Deftech Super cube III with Denon receiver) – Gems were actually not bookshelves however Deftech calls any speaker that can be kept on flat surface as bookshelf )

They sounded good to me and as my ears are not trained to recognize good speakers and I am learning what I actually like or may like, as I audition more and more systems, so I knew i need to re-audition before i decide on Deftech and during 2nd auditioned i some how felt they are putting some strain on ears after say 30 mins of viewing an action movie. I am not much familiar with audiophile terms but i guess Deftech is bright. However the deftech super cube III has very deep, tight and clean bass

2) Martin Logon (Martin logon motion 2*4, Motion 6 center, Paradigm sub with with Denon AVR )

The speakers were putting some strain on ears found them to be not too much of my liking, i guess they are brighter than Defetch ?

3) Monitor Audio -( MA MX2, MA Silver center and surrounds and MA sub with Denon AVR)

These speakers sounded good and the center was probably clearer and sharper than Deftech and ML however in 2-3 scenes they put some strain on my ears and they they sounded very good in music.

4) PSB Image - Unfortunately the dealer dint have PSB Image B6 and i got to audition this combination (Image B5 *2 in fronts, B4*2 in rears with C5 center) the receiver used was Onkyo 608

The PSB was smooth and neutral sound and something that wont cause fatigue, however when I tried to play at higher volume i could not handle it i mean sound was not clear and it was putting strain on my ears. The salesperson at the store said PSBs are non fatiguing and that they were sounding not so good at high volume because these were completely new set of speakers which i was the first one to demo and they will get better after burn in period.

I hope B6 would be better than B5 and if they are then i will most likely buy them for my fronts.

My questions are :

1) I read very good reviews about Aperion Intimus centers and some say the Vertical Array technology is very good for centers and rare to find. So that make me look at Aperion center – The reviews on Aperion site and on Audioholics seems to be good hence I was thinking to go for this center ( purely based on reviews because I am not from US hence cant buy them keeping 30 days return policy in mind). But Many here including you suggest not to go for a different center i.e I should go for Aperion center only if I am going for Aperion fronts. So the issue remains is I will have to buy then on reviews and I cant even return them as I am not from the US. Not sure If it would worth taking a chance? May be some one who has auditioned PSB Image and Aperion both can help?

2) You mentioned you are a big fan of PSB and are happy with PSB Image Home theatre. Could you tell me which fronts, rears, center, sub and AVR are you using? ( also if possible can you tell me what all systems you tried before finalizing on PSB – Just names would suffice for now as they may help me decide better )

3) Do you know how PSB Image B6 sounds as compared to Image B5? Is there a lot of difference in sound quality ?

4) The Avrs are cheaper in the US and my friend is in US for 3 more weeks so I need to decide on AVR may be before I decide on PSB ( most likely these may be PSB Image bookshelves) which AVR from Onkyo 608, Denon 1911, Yamaha 667 do you think may gel well with PSB Image book shelves?

5) Have you by any chance tried Aperion Center ? if yes can you tell me how it sounds as compared to the PSB Center you are using?

Sorry for such a long post and thanks for reading this and for your help in advance.

Naren.

 

[3db]

4) PSB Image - Unfortunately the dealer dint have PSB Image B6 and i got to audition this combination (Image B5 *2 in fronts, B4*2 in rears with C5 center) the receiver used was Onkyo 608

The PSB was smooth and neutral sound and something that wont cause fatigue, however when I tried to play at higher volume i could not handle it i mean sound was not clear and it was putting strain on my ears. The salesperson at the store said PSBs are non fatiguing and that they were sounding not so good at high volume because these were completely new set of speakers which i was the first one to demo and they will get better after burn in period.

How loud is loud? What was the amp/recevier driving the PSBs? Was the dial on the amp or receiver turnd to more than halfway? I personally don't believe the myth of speaker breakin, espcially in the mids and highs.

I hope B6 would be better than B5 and if they are then i will most likely buy them for my fronts.

The B6 would be able to handle more power than teh B5 due to the larger woofer.

My questions are :

1) I read very good reviews about Aperion Intimus centers and some say the Vertical Array technology is very good for centers and rare to find. So that make me look at Aperion center – The reviews on Aperion site and on Audioholics seems to be good hence I was thinking to go for this center ( purely based on reviews because I am not from US hence cant buy them keeping 30 days return policy in mind). But Many here including you suggest not to go for a different center i.e I should go for Aperion center only if I am going for Aperion fronts. So the issue remains is I will have to buy then on reviews and I cant even return them as I am not from the US. Not sure If it would worth taking a chance? May be some one who has auditioned PSB Image and Aperion both can help?

I can't help you with #1.

2) You mentioned you are a big fan of PSB and are happy with PSB Image Home theatre. Could you tell me which fronts, rears, center, sub and AVR are you using? ( also if possible can you tell me what all systems you tried before finalizing on PSB – Just names would suffice for now as they may help me decide better )

I have the previous model T45s (T5 is the closest model) older Image 8C center and 1Bs as surrounds. The 1Bs are two models before the now B5.

I'm using a Yamaha RX-V1800 and I can push this system very loud without it sounding harsh or losing intelligeabilty of dialog

3) Do you know how PSB Image B6 sounds as compared to Image B5? Is there a lot of difference in sound quality ?

There should be no difference in quailty excpet for at high volume levels due to the B6 using a larger woofers. However, the B5 should be able to play fairly loud without strain.

4) The Avrs are cheaper in the US and my friend is in US for 3 more weeks so I need to decide on AVR may be before I decide on PSB ( most likely these may be PSB Image bookshelves) which AVR from Onkyo 608, Denon 1911, Yamaha 667 do you think may gel well with PSB Image book shelves?.

I would NOT do that unless you don't care about warranty. Most manufactureres will NOT honour the warranty if the recevier was purchased out of country from your place of residence.

5) Have you by any chance tried Aperion Center ? if yes can you tell me how it sounds as compared to the PSB Center you are using?

Sorry for such a long post and thanks for reading this and for your help in advance.

Naren.

I haven't heard Aperion personaly.

 

[naren2512]

@ 3db - Thanks for the response and your help so far with my doubts/ questions.

How loud is loud? What was the amp/recevier driving the PSBs? Was the dial on the amp or receiver turnd to more than halfway? I personally don't believe the myth of speaker breakin, espcially in the mids and highs.

The Receiver used was Onkyo 608, I am sorry I did not check to see if the dial on the amp was more than half way but it may have been so, I would say the volume was kept double the level at which we would watch TV at home or at a level 50% higher than the volume at which we watch movies in a movie theater and it wasn't too loud.

The B6 would be able to handle more power than teh B5 due to the larger woofer.

I have the previous model T45s (T5 is the closest model) older Image 8C center and 1Bs as surrounds. The 1Bs are two models before the now B5.

I'm using a Yamaha RX-V1800 and I can push this system very loud without it sounding harsh or losing intelligeabilty of dialog

makes me want to re-audition the PSBs but not sure if that will make the dealer get mad at me :-( and had you tried PSBs with any other receivers which helped you conclude on Yamaha?

There should be no difference in quailty excpet for at high volume levels due to the B6 using a larger woofers. However, the B5 should be able to play fairly loud without strain.

Could it be due to the receiver used i.e Onkyo or improper settings ( I have very little or no knowledge of receiver setting so I was just trusting the sales guy at the store for the setting etc)

I would NOT do that unless you don't care about warranty. Most manufactureres will NOT honour the warranty if the recevier was purchased out of country from your place of residence.

The price differential is a lot, AVRs are available in US at almost 50% of cost, so i will take chance of buying it from there even though i may not get warranty in my country ( India)

 

[3db]

@ 3db - Thanks for the response and your help so far with my doubts/ questions.

The Receiver used was Onkyo 608, I am sorry I did not check to see if the dial on the amp was more than half way but it may have been so, I would say the volume was kept double the level at which we would watch TV at home or at a level 50% higher than the volume at which we watch movies in a movie theater and it wasn't too loud.

makes me want to re-audition the PSBs but not sure if that will make the dealer get mad at me :-( and had you tried PSBs with any other receivers which helped you conclude on Yamaha?

Could it be due to the receiver used i.e Onkyo or improper settings ( I have very little or no knowledge of receiver setting so I was just trusting the sales guy at the store for the setting etc)

The price differential is a lot, AVRs are available in US at almost 50% of cost, so i will take chance of buying it from there even though i may not get warranty in my country ( India)

I picked the Yamaha because I got an increadable deal, $859 taxes in compared to $1299 retail and because of Yamaha's bulletproof reliability.

What I would do on your next audition is to listen to them in stereo only (Listen to a CD your are very familiar with) and in pure direct mode by passing all signal processing, bass management, etc so that you can hear the speaker and not the receiver's DSP behind the speaker. If you stilll don't like the speaker, move on to spmething else. Everyone's hearing is different and you and I most likely hear things alot differently. No sense purchasing a speaker on my recommendation if you don't like it.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

How high was the volume when all these speakers start to strain your ears?

We are all different. If your ears strain at 85dB, then they may be telling you to go down below 80dB.

I got the impression that the 2 you liked the most before your ears started to strain were the DefTechs and the PSBs?

I say listen to both systems again, and bring a $60 digital SPL meter (like Galaxy) with you:

http://www.amazon.com/Galaxy-CM130-Sound-Level-Meter/dp/B0002GWFG4

 

[naren2512]

I 'll definitely try to hear the PSB in the Stereo mode to get better idea abt PSB.

Also i will try to re-audition Deftech mythos gems

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I 'll definitely try to hear the PSB in the Stereo mode to get better idea abt PSB.

Also i will try to re-audition Deftech mythos gems

I would listen in Direct or Pure Direct mode, just to make sure nothing is altering the sound.

And, yes, you must re-audition those DefTechs, not that I'm partial to them or anything like that.