Green Mountain Audio Europas

[KEW]

KEW,
I admit that when comparing two high quality amplifiers, it is more difficult to discern. But I have tried amplifiers that didn't cut it right out of the box, and others that it took more time to discern the negative aspects. I will have to rely on that ole standby - "it all depends".

There is your ticket - use one of those amps that didn't cut it right out of the box against your 150W tube amp - easy money!
You could turn the audio world on its head when you showed us the light!

Heck, Mr. Clark is putting up $10,000. No doubt, his pockets are deeper than mine, but I'll happily pay you $500 if you can establish that you can actually hear the difference. It'd be worth that to know it wasn't a waste of money to buy a high dollar amp!

 

[GranteedEV]

There is your ticket - use one of those amps that didn't cut it right out of the box against your 150W tube amp - easy money!
You could turn the audio world on its head when you showed us the light!

Heck, Mr. Clark is putting up $10,000. No doubt, his pockets are deeper than mine, but I'll happily pay you $500 if you can establish that you can actually hear the difference. It'd be worth that to know it wasn't a waste of money to buy a high dollar amp!

I think it could be rather easy to discern, if you've got the right speaker(anything with a sharp impedance peak or dip). 1.5 ohm output impedance is definitely a fickle amplifier. I seriously would expect it to, even within its limits, to have bloated, loose bass. I feel that two well designed amplifiers should sound the same. But that doesn't imply it's a well designed amplifier.... by nature it's a flawed device.

 

[KEW]

I think it could be rather easy to discern, if you've got the right speaker(anything with a sharp impedance peak or dip). 1.5 ohm output impedance is definitely a fickle amplifier. I seriously would expect it to, even within its limits, to have bloated, loose bass. I feel that two well designed amplifiers should sound the same. But that doesn't imply it's a well designed amplifier.... by nature it's a flawed device.

True, but that would violate the following rules:

That neither amp is loaded beyond its rated impedance.

The test can be conducted at any volume desired; however, the amps will not be allowed to clip. In other words, listening volume can not exceed the power capacity of the smallest amp of the pair being tested. (power capacity will be defined as clipping or 2% THD 20Hz to 10kHz, whichever is less)

The amps will not be overloaded during the session from either a voltage or current requirement.

In case you missed it, this is the challenge we are discussing:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=771598&postcount=79

 

[Shakeydeal]

It'd be worth that to know it wasn't a waste of money to buy a high dollar amp!

Why not trust your own ears? Won't cost you a dime if you get an in home audition.

Shakey

 

[KEW]

Why not trust your own ears? Won't cost you a dime if you get an in home audition.

Shakey

I do trust my ears. I have swapped many amps - no improvement aside from a few times where it seemed I was operating the amps outside of their performance range.
After thousands of attempts (via Mr Clark), no one has been able to hear an audible difference.
But because you are certain, and know the easy ones to tell apart, you could do it one time with Mr. Clark and establish a difference exists to the benefit of the entire audio community.
Maybe you are the chosen one!
Why are you on forums if you do not want to seek or share knowledge?
Why are you so driven to claim your opinion as fact to others, but so reluctant to validate it to yourself and others?

 

[Shakeydeal]

I asked you earlier, but no response. Can you share with me what is in your system, your room setup, etc.?

My opinion is not fact. It is, however, my opinion. And you have yours.

It is my belief that differences are much easily discerned in a dedicated two channel system without all the processing and clutter of a home theater system. Two channel and multi-channel can never co-exist properly, but that's a topic for a different thread.

Shakey

 

[Dr. Parthipan]

I do trust my ears. I have swapped many amps - no improvement aside from a few times where it seemed I was operating the amps outside of their performance range.
After thousands of attempts (via Mr Clark), no one has been able to hear an audible difference.
But because you are certain, and know the easy ones to tell apart, you could do it one time with Mr. Clark and establish a difference exists to the benefit of the entire audio community.
Maybe you are the chosen one!
Why are you on forums if you do not want to seek or share knowledge?
Why are you so driven to claim your opinion as fact to others, but so reluctant to validate it to yourself and others?

So if there is no difference as you claim, how can people be being misled? There are hundreds of manufacturers making amplifiers. Are they all knowingly selling amps which are all the same and making a big profit?

 

[Shakeydeal]

So if there is no difference as you claim, how can people be being misled? There are hundreds of manufacturers making amplifiers. Are they all knowingly selling amps which are all the same and making a big profit?

Yeah, it's a conspiracy I tell ya. They are all evil. I bet they are behind global warming too...

 

[KEW]

The difference is that my opinion represents a strident pursuit of information and experience, while yours is stilted by an unwillingness to investigate opportunities which would validate or disprove it.

Explain what relevance my equipment could possibly have on this discussion.
It is merely a way to spin off and divert attention from the fact that you are making claims but are unwilling to back them up even though it would benefit you and the whole of the audio community.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Listen, I understand this site is more dedicated to mid fi and home theater. Whole different ball game than what I'm used to. So you guys can get back to your Paradigm, Denon, Yamaha discussions now. I won't pursue any further banter.

But I would like to get the thread back on topic about the Europas. That is why we were all here to begin with.

Shakey

I've been following this thread and I find it quite entertaining.
So, do understand this correctly?

Hi-Fi = High-priced, esoteric, and (probably) coloured sound reproduction.

Mid-Fi = Reasonably priced, popular, widely available, and transparent/accurate sound reproduction.

Then count me amongst the mid-fi plebians!

ABX testing is a slippery slope. It is stressful and hardly ever meaningful. As I mentioned in a previous post, long term listening is the best qualifier to determine what component is the best fit for you and your system.

What makes ABX testing a slippery slope, stressful and meaningless?

And, what is it about long term listening that makes it a better methodology for determining performance? From my standpoint, long term listening will simply condition you to the actual performance of the equipment in question, subconciously shaping your opinion. And, unless I'm very much mistaken this has been proven scientifically (Floyd Toole and/or Sean Olive?).

I think digital has gotten to the point where it can sound really good. I listen to it about 40-50% of the time. But if I put a record on at any point during a listening session, it's all over. I can't play another seedee that night.

I think digital media has garnered a bad rap because it is so open to abuse, in a way that can't be done to vinyl. A properly engineered and mastered recording in the digital domain is at least as good as the best vinyl. It also has the added bonus of not wearing out. Of course, if you like vinyl for the snap, cracles and pop, as well as the cover art, all bets are off....

Cables do have real differences and do NOT sound the same. Sorry, but that's the way it is. I think most people who disagree either don't seriously listen to music as a singular event (i.e. reading, background music, cleaning the house, talking on the phone, etc.) or don't have a system that can resolve the differences.

The only way cables can make a difference, is if they deliberately colour the sound. And "colour" is not a synonym for "improved". I don't care what other equipment is being used in the system. If it's audible it's measureable. For a short (say 6 feet) run, you could use 18awg lamp cord for speaker wire and you will not get better sound from any other wire on this planet. Period. This question has been put to rest scientifically and is only being kept alive by snake oil vendors, their shills and their suckers. From all the equipment you've had over the years, I'm guessing that a limited budget isn't a problem you face. So, if you think spending a lot on wire gets you better SQ, go ahead. I'm sorry for being blunt, but I can't stand it when people with limited budgets and knowledge are persuaded to pi*s away too much on wire.

Why not trust your own ears?

I do trust my ears - and my ears alone. That's why ABX testing is the best method we have to confirm the measurements of different equipment. Sure, it isn't easy to conduct such a test, but if you really want to verify a subjective opinion, it's the way to go. If you believe that you aren't influenced by appearance or brand name, you are deluding yourself.

Shakeydeal, you've said that you have nothing to prove. Well, you could also claim that snow is purple. We'd expect some proof of that as well.

 

[KEW]

So if there is no difference as you claim, how can people be being misled? There are hundreds of manufacturers making amplifiers. Are they all knowingly selling amps which are all the same and making a big profit?

Richard Clark is offering $10,000 to anyone who can pick between amps (you choose both amps) in a blind AB test. Thousands have tried (and you figure these are the most certain they would win), but no one has been able to do it yet! The details are here:
http://www.tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/index.htm

But yes there are differences, but not audible differences between what most of us would consider decent amplifiers that are not being driven past their abilities. Hopefully when you buy a more expensive amp you are getting increased reliability, better warranty & customer service, and a better looking unit (to the extent that is important to you).

 

[Shakeydeal]

The difference is that my opinion represents a strident pursuit of information and experience,

Errr.....don't look now, but so does mine.....


The context and details of your system are important. If I say I can't hear a difference between two Sony receivers, then that may well be true. But when you start comparing higher quality components in a resolving system, the differences are easier to hear.

I've got a Kenwood receiver in a makeshift HT system in my living room. If my buddy brought his Yamaha over, I doubt I would be able to pick them apart.

See where I'm going......?


Shakey

 

[Dr. Parthipan]

Explain what relevance my equipment could possibly have on this discussion.
It is merely a way to spin off and divert attention[/B]

The relevance is so that we can gauge your comments based on what you have.
Sometimes people voice strong opinions because of envy that they cannot afford expensive high end hi fi equipment.

 

[KEW]

The difference is that my opinion represents a strident pursuit of information and experience,

Errr.....don't look now, but so does mine.....

If that were true, why would you be reluctant to take Mr. Clark's challenge? You should be delighted to have such an opportunity, instead you cling to your beliefs and avoid the opportunity to gain real knowledge.

Mr. Clark is kind enough to "put his money where your mouth is" because he wants the truth and is willing to pay someone well for it if they can disprove the premise that amps sound the same. Help the guy out!

 

[Shakeydeal]

Hi-Fi = High-priced, esoteric, and (probably) coloured sound reproduction.

Oh Pleeaazze! With the exception of my phono stage, I bought every piece of my system used on Audiogon. Sure, if purchased new it would be a pretty penny. But I got it for pennies on the dollar. Big money doesn't always = Big sound. But keep in mind, you usually get what you pay for. But here's a news flash for ya, it is NOT colored and is highly resolving and transparent to the source.

When I speak of mid-fi I am referring to the following:

Five (or insert number of) channel receivers
Home Theater Pre/Processor
Pro Sound amps
Big ole honking screen in betwen two speakers flanking either side of it
Most DVD players used to play music

I could go on, but the above is a recipe for sonic disaster. Sure it will probably be just fine for car crashes and dinosaur stomps. But music? Cmon....really?

Shakey

 

[KEW]

The relevance is so that we can gauge your comments based on what you have.
Sometimes people voice strong opinions because of envy that they cannot afford expensive high end hi fi equipment.

I have a bit over $15,000 in my gear which I'm sure is below standards of "expensive high end hi fi equipment". It stereo for music only. I have listened to a variety of amps, but do not have access to a setup like Mr. Clarks which would allow me to accurately level match and instantly switch between them. The louder amp sounds better, but that is hardly a useful conclusion!

If I had reason to believe there was a worthwhile improvement I could/would spend more, but what I have represents what I consider a comfortable budget for my audio hobby.

 

[GranteedEV]

Oh Pleeaazze! With the exception of my phono stage, I bought every piece of my system used on Audiogon. Sure, if purchased new it would be a pretty penny. But I got it for pennies on the dollar. Big money doesn't always = Big sound. But keep in mind, you usually get what you pay for. But here's a news flash for ya, it is NOT colored and is highly resolving and transparent to the source.

When I speak of mid-fi I am referring to the following:

Five (or insert number of) channel receivers
Home Theater Pre/Processor
Pro Sound amps
Big ole honking screen in betwen two speakers flanking either side of it
Most DVD players used to play music

I could go on, but the above is a recipe for sonic disaster. Sure it will probably be just fine for car crashes and dinosaur stomps. But music? Cmon....really?

Shakey

For starters, Multichannel pre/processors are far more capable units than
analogue pre-amplifiers. They have both analogue preamplification sections, but only the processor will have its own DAC designed to properly resolve the extreme detail in a lossless Blu Ray soundtrack. The fact that you think movie soundtracks consist of car crashes and dinosaur stops pretty much says all we need to think about you... a bitter person who has never experienced a truly great surround soundtrack. And then there's bass management. The resolution for this needs to be extremely high.. something like Audessey XT32. Bass is the sort of thing where room issue are a given. To be able to tame this properly will certainly improve the quality of bass... musical or otherwise No analogue preamp can hope to compete with this. To have something equivalent to a parametric EQ is a very useful thing to have if you've got a commitment to quality bass in room.

Second, research and development goes far more into a quality big name pre/processor like the Marantz AV7005 than a small company making a tube preamp is capable of.. and that's not even the best processor out there, merely the most affordable. The Denon flagship amplifier, all 10 or however many channels of it, would wipe the floor with whatever you or I have. It's solid state and it's multichannel... and it's meticuously engineered. Go look at the measurements, it's plain and simple on another level. of course you seem to think measurements don't indicate an amplifier's quality, and that your ears are more capable than extremely calibrated instruments designed for these purposes. The reason people here avoid esoteric brands like a plague has nothing to do with negligence of fidelity... it's very much the opposite. We want true high fidelity, not fake high fidelity that compromises transparency to sound better to some people's ears.

Third, arguably the highest fidelity music out there exists as multichannel music. An stereo rig cannot hope to play that. Stereo as a format is inherently flawed.

Fourth, a pro sound amp is a very capable device. Because it's designed for extreme power, it is stable into extremely low impedance loads. As has been mentioned earlier, all good amps within their limits sound the same. A pro sound amp happens to have very high limits, and thus is a very capable device if you can seal it off. A pro sound amp will also have balanced connections, allowing you to avoid the issues inherent in "audiophile" interconnects (which are RCA cables covered in all sorts of cloth and metal in order to compromise performance).

I'm also not seeing how a screen in the middle of two speakers has any effect on fidelity. Particularly modern wall mount televisions and projection screens. The fact that I can actually use my speakers for multiple purposes does not mean they won't excel at any one purpose. The only issue with a television is that it prevents the center channel from being identical to the left and right, but of course this is a non factor for stereo listening. FWIW, I've got my towers spaced about 8 feet apart, and a 46" plasma in between, so they've got plenty of space to operate. A set of speakers that excels in music should have absolutely zero issue with a modern lossless movie. If your speakers or amplifier fail to resolve the audio content of a movie like Master and Commander at reference, it has little do with "loud car crashes and dinosaur stomps". It has to do with a speaker system that's flat out missing something.

Just because you're stuck in the 1970s does not imply that a classic two channel stereo with an analogue pre-amp, a turntable, and a tube amp on the ground in the middle gives you better fidelity. Far from it. In fact you're missing out on the advances in technology leading to higher fidelity. You're the one stuck in Mid-Fi. Perhaps it was Hi Fi, once upon a time, but you've been unable to get with the times. Hopefully your speakers are less dated, so back to Jerry. Someone who actually bothers to understand how and why something works properly instead of believing in magic.

 

[Shakeydeal]

Grant,

It's hard to even know where to start with you. I don't think you have ever been exposed to a two channel system that creates a 3 dimensional soundstage with whip crack transients, low level details and macrodynamics that are startling.

You are invited to hear one. Just let me know when to expect you.......

Shakey

 

[GranteedEV]

Appreciate the offer, but if there's an ultra hi fi system here that I want to hear, I'd much rather listen to TLS Guy's DIY transmission lines in stereo and multichannel, or Gene's T30LSE refernce system. They're whole systems and rooms based on better understanding than I not voodoo.

 

[GO-NAD!]

For starters....

Thanks for saving me the trouble.