Green Mountain Audio Europas

S

Shakeydeal

Junior Audioholic
You know as well as I do that any review should be taken with the proverbial grain. It is a good starting point, but by no means an indication of a product's worth to you the consumer. The speaker will sound different in your room, with your system. And it will measure differently in your room with your system.

and non-over-driven tubes sound the same as SS unless mis-calibrated.)
So you are saying that all amps, regardless of technology involved, sound the same when level matched and not overdriven? I certainly hope I am not reading that right. If so, then why not just buy a huge honking Crown pro amp? As long as it has enough power for your speakers, it should sound the same as a (insert popular high end brand) amp.

Shakey
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Part of that is because you are not trying to describe what you heard to others.

You've discussed the importance of getting the proper configuration (position, lean in, etc) of these speakers. If all you did was sit and listen, how do you know if you are hearing a speaker at its best?

I've already discussed the results of "just sat and put on some music". But "do I like it" is only one of the several questions in front of me. My experience with the Europa's in a large room vs near-field is, for example, very different.

Like all bookshelves (and most towers) there's limited bass response in the Europa's. In fact, the floor is higher than I think any other bookshelf I have (would have to check on the PSB's). As such, without a subwoofer that's been properly setup for them, they will sound inferior to other bookshelves due to poorer bass response.

That would be a "didn't like the bass", but might also be unfair. Since any bookshelf would have to integrate with a sub: I might dismiss an otherwise good speaker for a fixable problem.

This is particularly important (in my mind) when dealing with speakers that are "different". If I compare two 2nd order 2-way monopolar bookshelves with similar frequency ranges then it's pretty easy. (well, less hard).

But say I throw in an omni-polar and listen: and there's a real sonic problem area behind the speaker (where the monopolar didn't hit except at low frequencies), or I put in a planar speaker but then place it too close to a wall.

No.

I actually just finished some HT listening on the Europas. I'm still needing to setup 2.1 to retry music listening.
Does the manufacturer post placement recommendations, in any form? I know some do this in very specific terms and not following their details can result in really bad sound, for a variety of reasons. Is it possible that the dip is due to the speakers not being near a needed boundary?

I have seen worse response graphs- it's kind of peaky and looks like the 1M curve shows the room's interaction more than anything. Can you measure them the same way in a non-reverberant area, like in a large closet full of clothes or outside, with no objects to bounce the sound off of?
 
Last edited:
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
You know as well as I do that any review should be taken with the proverbial grain. It is a good starting point, but by no means an indication of a product's worth to you the consumer. The speaker will sound different in your room, with your system. And it will measure differently in your room with your system.
But it will have consequence... which is what you argued against.

So you are saying that all amps, regardless of technology involved, sound the same when level matched and not overdriven? I certainly hope I am not reading that right. If so, then why not just buy a huge honking Crown pro amp? As long as it has enough power for your speakers, it should sound the same as a (insert popular high end brand) amp.
http://www.roger-russell.com/truth/truth.htm

There are also issues to consider other than simple wattage (again I refer to Roger Russell)

That said: the issue is that properly built amps being run within their limitations sound the same. That doesn't mean that a given amp at a given load is sufficiently flat. http://www.proaudioreview.com/article/32598

And I am running several pro-amps (Yamaha PxxxxS amps). I do because they have the same sound for less money. Emotiva is also popular for the same reason. My one truly difficult load I have been considering trying a Peavy IDP for.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
I have seen worse response graphs- it's kind of peaky and looks like the 1M curve shows the room's interaction more than anything. Can you measure them the same way in a non-reverberant area, like in a large closet full of clothes or outside, with no objects to bounce the sound off of?
At some point I plan on measuring outside. I still need to get the mic stand first. I also want more practice with some of the other measurements inside because I want to do it right and do it quick.

I also hope to calibrate the measurements to specific power outputs; but I'm not sure I'm geared to do that.
 
S

Shakeydeal

Junior Audioholic
And I am running several pro-amps (Yamaha PxxxxS amps). I do because they have the same sound for less money. Emotiva is also popular for the same reason. My one truly difficult load I have been considering trying a Peavy IDP for.
I think that speaks volumes.


I have never heard two amps sound the same. And I have only heard a couple of SS amps that I would even consider listening to long term.

I guess I am truly out of my element here.

Shakey
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
I have never heard two amps sound the same. And I have only heard a couple of SS amps that I would even consider listening to long term.
Just at the house I have McIntosh, Adcom, Yamaha Pro, Integra (AVR), Marantz (AVR), and Pioneer.

I've certainly listened to tube amps (McIntosh, FatMan, etc) but own none.
 
R

RoyJ

Junior Audioholic
Jerry,

To enjoy Europas the most, please refer to the setup instructions in their Owner's Guide. If you do not have that, we can send one by email. Complete specs are also listed in it.

I can tell you Europas were designed for listeners at 1.7 meters to 4 meters away, for use on 24" speaker stands, and with their foam grilles left in place.

Best regards,
Roy Johnson
Designer
Green Mountain Audio
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
At some point I plan on measuring outside. I still need to get the mic stand first. I also want more practice with some of the other measurements inside because I want to do it right and do it quick.

I also hope to calibrate the measurements to specific power outputs; but I'm not sure I'm geared to do that.
I would use a stand with an arm on it to keep it out of the way- they're usually pretty reasonably priced but if it has the tripod base, I would think about weighing it down. Musician's Friend and local music stores often have a discount model that work well. I've even seen some good prices on Craig's List.
 
Last edited:
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
Jerry,

To enjoy Europas the most, please refer to the setup instructions in their Owner's Guide. If you do not have that, we can send one by email. Complete specs are also listed in it.

I can tell you Europas were designed for listeners at 1.7 meters to 4 meters away, for use on 24" speaker stands, and with their foam grilles left in place.

Best regards,
Roy Johnson
Designer
Green Mountain Audio
I would appreciate a copy of the setup instructions (I presume you have my email from our email exchanges). After day 1, my listening has been at the suggested distances and with grills on.

I've not seen someone before recommend a specific height-from-floor. Generally the proper height of a speaker is determined by the height of the ear listening to it. Would you recommend I stick with 24" regardless?
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
So you are saying that all amps, regardless of technology involved, sound the same when level matched and not overdriven? I certainly hope I am not reading that right. If so, then why not just buy a huge honking Crown pro amp? As long as it has enough power for your speakers, it should sound the same as a (insert popular high end brand) amp.
the only reason you wouldn't buy the crown pro amp is because it's gonna have loud fan noise underneath your TV because it's designed for 115db type concert levels hidden in a control room etc. Perhaps the channel separation may not be as good as a pair of mono blocks either.

Otherwise, nothing wrong at all with a pro amp. They're usually a great bang for buck if you can find a closet to seal them off or if they're fanless.
 
Last edited:
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
I would appreciate a copy of the setup instructions (I presume you have my email from our email exchanges). After day 1, my listening has been at the suggested distances and with grills on.

I've not seen someone before recommend a specific height-from-floor. Generally the proper height of a speaker is determined by the height of the ear listening to it. Would you recommend I stick with 24" regardless?
prbably it's got to do with the vertical power response?
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
prbably it's got to do with the vertical power response?
Possibly. It's a question I'd like to get answered before I push forward. If true it may pose another limitation on application. That's not always a convenient height in a given room.
 
T

tom67

Full Audioholic
Jerry,

To enjoy Europas the most, please refer to the setup instructions in their Owner's Guide. If you do not have that, we can send one by email. Complete specs are also listed in it.

I can tell you Europas were designed for listeners at 1.7 meters to 4 meters away, for use on 24" speaker stands, and with their foam grilles left in place.

Best regards,
Roy Johnson
Designer
Green Mountain Audio
Just at the house I have McIntosh, Adcom, Yamaha Pro, Integra (AVR), Marantz (AVR), and Pioneer.

I've certainly listened to tube amps (McIntosh, FatMan, etc) but own none.
Is that right?....they were meant to be heard at 6 1/2 to 13 feet away......does that eliminate them as choices in large rooms?
 
S

Shakeydeal

Junior Audioholic
the only reason you wouldn't buy the crown pro amp is because it's gonna have loud fan noise

Trust me. That would only be a small reason for me not buying it.


Shakey
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Is that right?....they were meant to be heard at 6 1/2 to 13 feet away......does that eliminate them as choices in large rooms?
AFAIK They're a bookshelf with a first order filters both ways. I doubt they're designed for high power handling / output, which is necessary to compensate for distance losses

Trust me. That would only be a small reason for me not buying it.
:rolleyes:

Why is that? Let me guess the highs are grainy, the bass isn't warm enough, the soundstage isn't intimate enough, the mids are closer to strawberry than belgian chocolate?

IE audiophile propaganda.
 
Last edited:
S

Shakeydeal

Junior Audioholic
Call it what you like. I'm a tube guy. Not SET, but high powered tubes. No euphonic colorations, warm wet blanket, or other tube misconceptions for me. I listen at realistic volumes and like bass slam and articulation. I have heard a few SS amps that I like. McCormack, Plinius and Coda come to mind.
 
S

Shakeydeal

Junior Audioholic
Well I met Richard Clark back in the late 80s when I used to compete in IASCA. This was before his Buick Grand National. He had a Cadillac with a very tricked out system that would be the envy of many high end audiophile home systems. He was a nice enough fellow and extremely smart.

Anyway, I have had enough amps come through my home to know there are sonic differences. I don't need a 10K carrot dangled in front of me. And ABX testing is just an exercise in frustration. Long term listening more accurately depicts what is going on.

Shakey
 
newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top