Google’s secret sound school

lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I'd sure like to know who they invited for that "training" on audio.... :) At least they got the louder thing in and that many people will like a bass boost....
 
Ren Kitchener

Ren Kitchener

Junior Audioholic
I'd sure like to know who they invited for that "training" on audio.... :) At least they got the louder thing in and that many people will like a bass boost....
I like Bass 'boost', but not by using filters lovinthehd - you have to have some bass 'boost' because to prevent smashing past the 'Line' levels, bass recoding levels are often flattened by the post production engineer, after the recoding engineer has had his/her fun with the trouser flapping far-field speakers.

To add the perception of a 'louder' bass, production will often use a dynamic multiband compressor (hardware or software). Personally, I much prefer bass 'boosted' by a high-ratio hard-knee multiband compressor, because it makes the bass pleasantly 'thicker' without bending the VU meter pointers - worst still, without fracturing your woofer cones.

Ideally, amps could do with a dynamic multiband compressor/expander or multiband loudness maximiser - but it would cost another $1,000 or $2,000 for stereo. It can be done cheaper with DSP - however, the purists will have something to say about all of that - for sure.
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I like Bass 'boost', but not by using filters lovinthehd - you have to have some bass 'boost' because to prevent smashing past the 'Line' levels, bass recoding levels are often flattened by the post production engineer, after the recoding engineer has had his/her fun with the trouser flapping far-field speakers.

To add the perception of a 'louder' bass, production will often use a dynamic multiband compressor (hardware or software). Personally, I much prefer bass 'boosted' by a high-ratio hard-knee multiband compressor, because it makes the bass pleasantly 'thicker' without bending the VU meter pointers - worst still, without fracturing your woofer cones.

Ideally, amps could do with a dynamic multiband compressor/expander or multiband loudness maximiser - but it would cost another $1,000 or $2,000 for stereo. It can be done cheaper with DSP - however, the purists will have something to say about all of that - for sure.
An example of such gear?
 
Ren Kitchener

Ren Kitchener

Junior Audioholic
An example of such gear?
I run all my music through a software based stereo multiband compressor/expander (in Steinburg - and it has to be used very carefully), then through Bluetooth aptX - but here is a nice example of some hardware: It's a Maselec. For amps, you don't actually need so many knobs (I know you don't like knobs). The manufactures should ditch their Baxandalls for some DSP work. Compressor/expanders are great in the right hands, and awful in the wrong - so a simplified, semi-automatic DSP solution would be great to have in an Amplifier.

Now, I don't know if they already have this in some high end boutique integrated amplifiers - I wouldn't be surprised. They already have DSP crossovers in some - so they are part the way there already.
1611057401415.png
 
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highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I run all my music through a software based stereo multiband compressor/expander (in Steinburg), then through Bluetooth aptX - but here is a nice example of some hardware: It's a Maselec. For amps, you don't actually need so many knobs (I know you don't like knobs). The manufactures should ditch their Baxandalls for some DSP work. Compressor/expanders are great in the right hands, and awful in the wrong - so a simplified, semi-automatic DSP solution would be great to have in an Amplifier.

Now, I don't know if they already have this in some high end boutique integrated amplifiers - I wouldn't be surprised. They already have DSP crossovers in some - so they are part the way there already.
View attachment 43798
How would a device like that have controls for individual frequencies without using filters?
 
Ren Kitchener

Ren Kitchener

Junior Audioholic
How would a device like that have controls for individual frequencies without using filters?
You are quite right highfigh. It has filters, but they are used as crossovers to segregate the bands - which can be adjusted. When I say filters to increase or boost the bass, they are the band/shelf cut and band/shelf boost filters when used in bass and treble tone control - the compressors don't have that, they have what is called a make-up control if the knee is too low (which quietens the band - so it needs amplifying). It sounds the same, but it's far from the same - that's for another topic I think.
In short, with a multiband compressor, or limiter, or maximiser, you can 'boost' the bass, but the levels remain the same. This is a non-linear result - so the audiophiles will not like it one bit - unless it's a tube multiband compressor, then everything is fine....
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
So a sort of parametric eq? What filters are they using?
 
Ren Kitchener

Ren Kitchener

Junior Audioholic
So a sort of parametric eq? What filters are they using?
Yes, that's right lovinthehd - a sort of parametric - without the Q adjustment. The filters they use can vary, depending on how many bands they need. With S/W, I'll take a wild guess that they could even be 120 dB/octave - Butterworth response haha. But for analogue, maybe 12 to 24 dB/Oct? Sallen and Key perhaps? I just don't know the answer to that.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Maybe you could start a thread on the subject and explore how it works....
 
Ren Kitchener

Ren Kitchener

Junior Audioholic
Maybe you could start a thread on the subject and explore how it works....
Maybe, Let's see. It really needs the experts to kick something like this off - having a 24-bit stereo I/O, 32 bit DSP development card on my desk, doesn't make me an expert either - the little orange-yellow thing neatly plugged into a breadboard, yearning for instructions as each day passes, petrifies me. I'm going to have to move it.
 
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ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Field Marshall
So the google is trying to develop smart speakers, using a wine-wheel of largely subjective terms. That's great.

Most of the terms on that wheel thingy look like they're reducible to well established, measurable aspects that non-googly speaker designers already rely on, e.g. freq response, power response, absence of resonances, distortion levels, dynamic range capability, etc.

Their definition of "naturalness" lands them smack into what Toole called the circle of confusion. Interesting side discussion b/t lovin and Ren seems to also concern the production quality, rather than speaker design. It's too bad that the default preference isn't for recordings to be released with greater dynamic range and more lifelike tonal balance, letting the consumer apply compression as needed (for earbuds, car audio, smart speakers of modest capability). Some bad recordings can be fixed (kinda, sorta) using editing software. Audacity may be able to fix things that Ren mentions at that level, rather than via extra hardware downstream.

Now if google can come up with the performance of the Dutch&Dutch 8c for a tiny fraction of the cost, that would be interesting, but if they're just after plastic, mono smart speakers with thick bass? Meh.
 
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Ren Kitchener

Ren Kitchener

Junior Audioholic
Now if google can come up with the performance of the Dutch&Dutch 8c for a tiny fraction of the cost, that would be interesting, but if they're just after plastic, mono smart speakers with thick bass? Meh.
WOW - the spec on those 8c's! Class D too! 30 Hz! Now that's where the bass lies - a tad lower than the B on a 5-string bass.
 
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