Good to hold off on buying the newest AppleTV

[Xymox]

This vid makes the case that the newest AppleTV is not so great. For our use in high end AV this makes sense to stick to the previous model

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I'll be honest. I watched about 10mins of this video, trying to get his opinions on both devices.
From what I can see and agree, the newer design is significantly simpler and cheaper to produce. This is probably the only point in your video I will agree with the author.

RF and EMI DO matter in the analog world. In the digital one, if an overall design can still deliver the same bits and bobs to the destination unmolested, then I call it a job done. Early on, the author says this ridiculous thing:
"Newer one uses less power than it means it's doing less" - Utter nonsense. Then he says the newer design uses low-power "mode," then changes it to a new design using a new central processor chip. So which is it? Is the same chip in restricted power mode or a new, much more power-efficient chip?

I did not see any measurements in the video (talking about RF measurements doesn't count - I want to see measurements that directly affect performance - It doesn't say HDMI can deliver 18gbps or Ethernet 1gbps without signal loss and noticeable retransmissions. Does Wifi or BT have measurably lower performance on a new model? Does it not decode the same (or likely more) video/audio codecs and formats?

RFI/EMI could affect DAC performance, but does it even have a DAC? Does anyone use DACs in AppleTV, even if they exist?
I've heard audiophools talk about ethernet jitter and audiophile network equipment for a long time, and I suspect this video firmly belongs to the same category.

p.s: It's another sign of the "brave" YouTuber author of this video to disable comments on the video. Just as it was "brave" action by YouTube to remove visible dislike counts on all videos.

p.s.s: As far as I know, the only feature that could require a powerful processor on media client is AI video upscaling, a unique feature of 2019+ Nvidia Shield TVs. The rest is primary menu navigation and hardware video decoding, which is the same idea I have used since building the first Nvidia ION-based HTPC in 2010.

 

[lovinthehd]

Wow a whole 23 subscribers, that your video Xymox?

 

[Xymox]

I've heard audiophools talk about ethernet jitter and audiophile network equipment for a long time, and I suspect this video firmly belongs to the same category.

So digital Jitter does not affect sound ? Same bits and bobs. I am just checking.

I see many people with cognitive bias. But lets not start down that whole road on my first post here right ?

How much engineering do you do ? What have you designed in the market ? I have some press coverage doing engineering and awards for making some best of class products.

Early on, the author says this ridiculous thing:
"Newer one uses less power than it means it's doing less" - Utter nonsense. Then he says the newer design uses low-power "mode," then changes it to a new design using a new central processor chip. So which is it?

Both of course. But yes your right, "doing less" was a poor choice of words.

As far as the gear I use to engineer products, I am sure you would be aghast at the systems I use as bits being molested by RF and EMI do matter for me. As far as test equip, oh trust me, I have so much gear its a bit crazy. Test equipment is a side hobby. I am kinda a believer in analog test gear, so feel free to berate me on that.

You will really hate the web site and the stuff in the "how it was created section". https://www.appletvx.com/ Reviews and stuff too.

R&D setup quick vid. LOTS of useless gear that plays with bits and bobs to make them happy before decoding them. Uses lots of expensive fancy wire, even for digital. The CH Precision dual mono C1.2 is the latest bit and bob renderer to arrive just this last weekend.

Wow a whole 23 subscribers,

Interesting you judge something on its number of subscribers. WHo would subscribe to watch these kinds of vids ? Not me. Well maybe. But I consider youtube as something I would not go look at updates on people I follow. I consider subscribers as more of a status symbol by "influencers" what ever the heck that is. I have never subscribed to anything on youtube and would not know how to look at what results. BUT thats just me.

 

[lovinthehd]

So digital Jitter does not affect sound ? Same bits and bobs. I am just checking.

I see many people with cognitive bias. But lets not start down that whole road on my first post here right ?

How much engineering do you do ? What have you designed in the market ? I have some press coverage doing engineering and awards for making some best of class products.



Both of course. But yes your right, "doing less" was a poor choice of words.

As far as the gear I use to engineer products, I am sure you would be aghast at the systems I use as bits being molested by RF and EMI do matter for me. As far as test equip, oh trust me, I have so much gear its a bit crazy. Test equipment is a side hobby. I am kinda a believer in analog test gear, so feel free to berate me on that.

You will really hate the web site and the stuff in the "how it was created section". https://www.appletvx.com/ Reviews and stuff too.

R&D setup quick vid. LOTS of useless gear that plays with bits and bobs to make them happy before decoding them. Uses lots of expensive fancy wire, even for digital. The CH Precision dual mono C1.2 is the latest bit and bob renderer to arrive just this last weekend.

Interesting you judge something on its number of subscribers. WHo would subscribe to watch these kinds of vids ? Not me. Well maybe. But I consider youtube as something I would not go look at updates on people I follow. I consider subscribers as more of a status symbol by "influencers" what ever the heck that is. I have never subscribed to anything on youtube and would not know how to look at what results. BUT thats just me.

It's just one indication as to whether a video may be worth setting time aside to watch, he does seem to have a few videos about the appletv, fwiw. Who it is or what their qualifications are, hard to know.

 

[Xymox]

Lots of bit & bob fluffing here.. RFI and EMI DO matter on HDMI on both audio and video decoding. I will stand on that point. Further, I have a crazy *opinion* that jitter not only matters on audio, but, OMGosh, Video too..

This is what I use to make that judgement.

I am going to respectfully have to disagree. Bits and bobs can get jostled in various processes sometimes induced by RF and EMI and even noise on the clock ( Phase noise )..

The room even has its own press. https://www.theaudiobeat.com/visits/paradise_valley_system.htm

 

[Xymox]

It's just one indication as to whether a video may be worth setting time aside to watch, he does seem to have a few videos about the appletv, fwiw. Who it is or what their qualifications are, hard to know.

Isnt that covered in the reviews and links on the web site ?

 

[lovinthehd]

Isnt that covered in the reviews and links on the web site ?

Was just looking at info on their youtube channel, just checked out the website, what the heck is a $2500 streamer going to do? Magic?

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

So digital Jitter does not affect sound ? Same bits and bobs. I am just checking.

Jitter could affect digital transmission, but could it affect sound?- if the digital protocol is asymmetric and packet-based, then more often than not, it includes error checking. It just happens that BOTH HDMI and Ethernet paths include error checking. The same goes for Wifi and BT. Could RFI be strong enough to flip data bits before they get to the transmitter? It's possible, however unlikely, but it would be a horrible design. The such product would fail even a basic QA. Now I know you aren't talking about such case here, but as I said before, I go by actual science and objective engineering principles of data transmission.
Again, as I said, the story would be very different if Apple TV had analog circuits, like DAC or audio amplifiers. Still, Apple knows how to design a competent DAC and headphone amps.
Here you can learn more about Jitter effects in the digital realm:

Debunking myths about audio cables

Don't get swindled at the checkout counter—buying cables that work for your home or personal audio doesn't mean spending a lot.

www.soundguys.com

I see many people with cognitive bias. But lets not start down that whole road on my first post here right ?

Fair enough, I may have been a bit harsh, but a) your review was not very positive, and b) it is very light with objective information. Also, regarding your remark on cognitive bias, don't you feel that there is a chance you're projecting here?

How much engineering do you do ? What have you designed in the market ? I have some press coverage doing engineering and awards for making some best of class products.

I am an engineer, but not a electronics one (though I had my share of classic electronics and electricity education in my earlier life). I engineer complex computer infrastructure systems, which deliver both performance and scale required by project requirements. As for press/publishing and awards, I have seen too much behind the curtains to give it much value.

 

[BMXTRIX]

I'm just wondering, at the speaker, if there is any measurable difference in the quality of these two products. Not that I'm saying there is or there isn't, but when talking about the build quality, if someone isn't actually measuring audio quality at the speakers, then I end up a bit concerned in what is actually going on.

No question that the build quality is quite different and they clearly put in place some cost cutting measures. But, that doesn't mean that actual audio, or more often, video quality would be changed. More importantly, if there is a change, is it even noticeable in blind testing between the two models?

Maybe it is quite visibly not as good at the screen. Or as good to the ears. But, I'm not sure this is the case. Especially with how digital information is transmitted and received. Still, it doesn't mean that there isn't some difference.

What I really wonder, is if these boards are all opened up, what is the actual difference in the electronics which were used? Apple has been pushing their ARM architecture and custom chip design for a short while now, but their results have been incredibly good and test results on their chips have them running cooler and drawing far less power than the competition while improving performance a great deal. This is how they are able to make the Mac Mini in such a tight case while delivering consistently high performance. They REALLY know their stuff. This means they also will know what noise impacts the actual quality and which noise will have absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the final audio and video quality. Certainly power draw, in a world where iPhones exist without cooling at all, and solid computers require minimal fans, if any, they know how to regulate power to performance incredibly well.

Looking things up, the jump in the processing is from a A12 Bionic Chip to the A15 Bionic. The A15 is 50% faster in single and multi-threaded tasks while being nearly 30% more power efficient in this process. This is HUGE! It means that if all that power isn't needed, then it can draw far less power overall, while still delivering the same performance as the old device. What's crazier is that in real world stressful performance testing (gaming), the A15 measured about 80% better performance over the A12!
- https://nanoreview.net/en/soc-compare/apple-a15-bionic-vs-apple-a12-bionic

The performance jump of these chips is pretty much ignored in the video, and that's extremely disturbing to me. Especially when power draw is mentioned as a 'negative' to the product, when in fact, the word 'refined' is much better, and perhaps far more accurate.

I would prefer a lot more in the way of measurements presented in this video. There is a lot of good information about the quality of raw materials being clearly better on the older 2021 A2169 and the newer 2022 A2843. I'm just not sure, with how well Apple has been designing their chips, that this raw material quality difference actually matters at the devices at the end of the chain.

 

[Trell]

The A15 is 50% faster in single and multi-threaded tasks while being nearly 30% more power efficient in this process. This is HUGE! It means that if all that power isn't needed, then it can draw far less power overall, while still delivering the same performance as the old device. What's crazier is that in real world stressful performance testing (gaming), the A15 measured about 80% better performance over the A12!

As an added bonus the 2022 AppleTV does not have a fan, unlike the previous versions.