Going from 5.1 to 7.1 (need advice)

[Patrick Kennedy]

Sorry if my English is bad (french canadian)

I could use some help with upgrading my home theater setup.

I want to go from 5.1 to 7.1. My only concern is about the rear surround speaker... any idea what type of speaker and what brand to choose? So far all my speaker are Klipsch.

I have include a spec sheet of my home theater room, with what i have for speaker and AV and the dimension of the room. Also some drawing of the room.

Thank you for helping out.

 

[panteragstk]

With your room being open to the back I wouldn't bother with 7.1 (assuming your side speakers are indeed to the left and right side of your couch). Instead you may want to consider using your Atmos capable receiver to drive two Atmos speakers. In or on ceiling would be preferred, but you could potentially use some that point at the ceiling.

7.1 just doesn't do much especially in a room that the back is totally open like yours. The install would be just as, if not more, complicated that in/on ceiling Atmos that would probably give more effect.

 

[ImcLoud]

I also wouldn't bother with 7.x I have tried it and 5.x is IMO optimal, I find rear surrounds sound unnatural in 99% of the listening positions and is more likely to pull you out of the film... Also when matching speakers in surround sound- front stage match is most crucial, but also with rear and surrounds, and especially with a speaker design as bright as most Klipsch, I would stay with the same brand and series.. for a rear set you a can use the same as your surrounds, that would be ideal.. good luck..

 

[Pogre]

I also wouldn't bother with 7.x I have tried it and 5.x is IMO optimal, I find rear surrounds sound unnatural in 99% of the listening positions and is more likely to pull you out of the film... Also when matching speakers in surround sound- front stage match is most crucial, but also with rear and surrounds, and especially with a speaker design as bright as most Klipsch, I would stay with the same brand and series.. for a rear set you a can use the same as your surrounds, that would be ideal.. good luck..

I followed the link in your sig. Photobucket killed all of your pics!

 

[lovinthehd]

Where are you planning to install the rear surrounds? All the way back on the wall or somewhere closer to your seat?

 

[Latent]

Finding the best place for those rear speakers can be a bit of a challenge. One issue is the guidance on positioning them differs a lot between what your AVR manual might say and what might be recommended by source based layouts like Dolby. This can lead to confusion and poor results with different sources. Based on your AVR's manual it should be possible to place the speakers on the rear wall but if you go by Dolby recommended angles they would need to be placed on the side walls back a couple of meters from the couch.

Your AVR will do up to 7.2.2 with all 7 ear level speakers and 2 height speakers which could be Front Presence or in ceiling Top Front speakers. You can also consider doing just 5.2.2 where you only have 5 normal speakers and 2 height/ceiling speakers. Yamaha have quite good support for their height speakers with lots of options for many different DSP modes that control how they function. And with Atmos/DTS:X enabled content you can get them to output height info. Two of the smallest speakers that are a good match for your system could be used in the front top corners of the room or try in ceiling ones.

Also note your ceiling height is quite low which may cause some problems getting angles right. But it might also be an advantage for some speaker types like those bouncy atmos enabled speaker modules.

Here is a Dolby Atmos speaker layout guide I made which I have just modified to your rooms info from your PDF.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16PDbOdceFWBZ0zu7nsk5qFOzJofbo3440n6elHJ7w2U

There are a couple of measurements I have had to estimate which may need adjusting like your listening ear height and the position of your front speakers. Its main purpose is to give you some idea of where to place your height speakers to fall within the Dolby recommended specifications. But remember your AVR may have different ideas on where to place them. Look for the light green areas in some of the spreadsheets tabs where it will let you adjust the measurements that I may have got wrong.

It has a few graphs that show the layout of your room with possible positions and lower down has sections detailing specifics for each speaker placement.

 

[Patrick Kennedy]

Where are you planning to install the rear surrounds? All the way back on the wall or somewhere closer to your seat?

Behind the the couch, close to us

 

[lovinthehd]

Behind the the couch, close to us

On stands? You usually want at least 4 feet between you and the rear surrounds, plus they should be up above ear height. Your rear wall is a bit too far back in relation to your couch and other speakers, although do-able IMO; your ceiling is a bit low for a ceiling mount. You might consider front heights instead? I have a fair distance behind me to my rear surrounds but I have a larger room and a longer distance to the mains than you plus a higher ceiling. I still prefer 7 to 5 ch in that room (in my bedroom, 5 ch is fine, not suitable for 7ch). YMMV.

 

[Patrick Kennedy]

Finding the best place for those rear speakers can be a bit of a challenge. One issue is the guidance on positioning them differs a lot between what your AVR manual might say and what might be recommended by source based layouts like Dolby. This can lead to confusion and poor results with different sources. Based on your AVR's manual it should be possible to place the speakers on the rear wall but if you go by Dolby recommended angles they would need to be placed on the side walls back a couple of meters from the couch.

Your AVR will do up to 7.2.2 with all 7 ear level speakers and 2 height speakers which could be Front Presence or in ceiling Top Front speakers. You can also consider doing just 5.2.2 where you only have 5 normal speakers and 2 height/ceiling speakers. Yamaha have quite good support for their height speakers with lots of options for many different DSP modes that control how they function. And with Atmos/DTS:X enabled content you can get them to output height info. Two of the smallest speakers that are a good match for your system could be used in the front top corners of the room or try in ceiling ones.

Also note your ceiling height is quite low which may cause some problems getting angles right. But it might also be an advantage for some speaker types like those bouncy atmos enabled speaker modules.

Here is a Dolby Atmos speaker layout guide I made which I have just modified to your rooms info from your PDF.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16PDbOdceFWBZ0zu7nsk5qFOzJofbo3440n6elHJ7w2U

There are a couple of measurements I have had to estimate which may need adjusting like your listening ear height and the position of your front speakers. Its main purpose is to give you some idea of where to place your height speakers to fall within the Dolby recommended specifications. But remember your AVR may have different ideas on where to place them. Look for the light green areas in some of the spreadsheets tabs where it will let you adjust the measurements that I may have got wrong.

It has a few graphs that show the layout of your room with possible positions and lower down has sections detailing specifics for each speaker placement.

i will tried to get you the rest of the mesurment

 

[Patrick Kennedy]

On stands? You usually want at least 4 feet between you and the rear surrounds, plus they should be up above ear height. Your rear wall is a bit too far back in relation to your couch and other speakers, although do-able IMO; your ceiling is a bit low for a ceiling mount. You might consider front heights instead? I have a fair distance behind me to my rear surrounds but I have a larger room and a longer distance to the mains than you plus a higher ceiling. I still prefer 7 to 5 ch in that room (in my bedroom, 5 ch is fine, not suitable for 7ch). YMMV.

So you think that for my room 7.1 is wasted?

 

[lovinthehd]

So you think that for my room 7.1 is wasted?

Depends on how you do it, like perhaps using front heights instead. Maybe rear wall mounts might work. Maybe rearranging furnishings, maybe consider ceiling mounted speakers, etc.

 

[panteragstk]

So you think that for my room 7.1 is wasted?

It really does depend on what you want to get out of your system. 7.1 is a bit more immersive than 5.1, but not by much. The main reason I did it in my last theater and will do it in my current is because of video games. Those back speakers can make hearing enemies sneaking up on you very audible. Cars trying to pass you is also another good example.

However, in my living room down stairs I'm doing an all in ceiling 5.1 because there just isn't anywhere to put speakers. You may get away with the back speakers being in ceiling, but as I said above I'd put that effort into Atmos top speakers instead. You are more likely to get more out of them that way. Just my opinion of course, but I just think you'd like that better.

 

[Patrick Kennedy]

Here some more picture from the room. you can see the surround speaker. i was thinking of putting two rear surround speaker behind the couch on stands.

 

[Patrick Kennedy]

Depends on how you do it, like perhaps using front heights instead. Maybe rear wall mounts might work. Maybe rearranging furnishings, maybe consider ceiling mounted speakers, etc.

What do you mean by using the front heights?

 

[lovinthehd]

What do you mean by using the front heights?

There are three basic configurations for 7.1, rear surrounds is just one way to go, front wides or heights are another (but not all avrs support wides).

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

How bout a shot if the back? I like these for rooms like yours, although putting them in higher traffic areas might be problematic.

Ominimount.com

 

[Latent]

What do you mean by using the front heights?

What can be confusing for you is your Yamaha call front height speakers Front Presence. Yamaha are one of the first to make use of them but they did their own thing with them before anyone else started using them. Yamaha used their front presence speakers to deliver additional DSP created audio from these high mounted wide front speakers. It was used to sort of add another layer and simulate being in a different room more like a live performance etc. You may have seen some of the DSP options like "Concert Hall" and "Roxy Thearter" and wondered what they were on about. The basic idea was to produce a delayed version of the audio track to simulate the sound reflecting around the bigger or different room. Most people don't really find these DSP's that useful and they probably only work well for some music tracks when you are in the right mood for them. But they also then created some "CinemaDSP" versions that work for adding additional DSP sound effects for movie tracks and these use the presence speakers as well. I found some of these work really well and there is a lot of advanced options you can use to customize each DSP program to your liking by setting a few variables to dial it up or down etc.

Later on other companies have created there own versions of taking 5.1/7.1 sources and up sampling them to drive additional front height speakers and each has there own secret source. Recently it changed a bit when object based audio formats were released for use in home theater audio with Dolby Atmos (and DTS:X which is not as popular). Many big blockbuster movies now come with Atmos soundtracks on bluray now. These object based audio formats encode additional audio as well as the standard 5.1 that can be placed and moved as required in 3D space. The basic idea is that you can add several additional overhead speakers and it automatically works out how to output this 3D sound stage to your setup. While it could in theory work with speakers in nearly any position they limit it to only work with a few pre-defined speaker positions to make it simpler for them.

With your AVR you can have 3 height speaker options.
1. Front Height (Also used for Yamaha Front Presence DSP)
2. Top Front (these are in ceiling or ceiling mounted speakers above you but near the front)
3. Front Atmos Enabled speakers (These are up firing speakers that bounce sound off your ceiling)

 

[Patrick Kennedy]

Ok guys, i have redone my homework. I have tried to put more information on what i have at the moment. I got alot of info from you all, and i very appreciate it.

But now i am unsure what i should do for my next upgrade. There is alot of different opinion, so not sure what to choose.

1. Should i go 7.1 or stay 5.1? is it worth it?

2. Should i go Atmos.. and if i go Atmos, should i get ceiling speaker or bouncing speaker?

Has you can see, i have alot more of question.

I have redraw my home theater plan

Thank you again for your insight

 

[lovinthehd]

New pic didn't do much for me in seeing even as much as before.... Where are your current surrounds in 5.1? 5.1 can be very satisfying no doubt. Atmos might be good but I wouldn't do the bouncy speakers, just ceiling mounted.

 

[Patrick Kennedy]

New pic didn't do much for me in seeing even as much as before.... Where are your current surrounds in 5.1? 5.1 can be very satisfying no doubt. Atmos might be good but I wouldn't do the bouncy speakers, just ceiling mounted.

If you need more specific info, i will be glad to provide them to you