Getting that tube sound for less.

[highfigh]

Highfigh
I have already been talking to the HH about treatments, and I guess I will, like the speakers, need to show her how tasteful it can be done.
I have a 1957 Gibson Custom Black Beauty I traded a guy that was starting a C&W band and needed equipment in 1965 for 2 Epiphone’s, a Vox Cambridge tube amp, and a Vox Wa. It’s the fretless version, and I do love it when I play some smooth jazz on an 82 Fender TwinII with 2-12s or for a little more edge a B52 AT112. The fender Fat Strat, (hot rodded with some Tex spec and Pearlygates) I like to play a lot of “modded music” with, ex. Robin Trower Bridge of Sighs, on a Line 6 SpyderIV 75w-used to have the III. I do not have to have a ton of mod-boxes around to get the sounds I want. This is nowadays all at home or at small open stage nights.
What does this have to do with my audio question? Maybe just a matter of personal preference and the color of the music I want to hear. My old ears get tired when the sound is tooo pure I guess.
How about yourself?

You mean it's a "Fretless Wonder", with the P-90 and AlnicoV pickups? Nice deal for you. Have you kept up on vintage guitar values? I had one and sold it. I didn't like the frets because I like to bend and it just didn't work for me, so I occasionally just sit in the dark and cry.

Is the '82 a Red Knob Twin- the 130W Evil Twin with JBL D-130?

I asked out of curiosity and knowing what amps you like, it gives me an idea of your general preferences in sound quality. If you said you like Marshall, Roland, Mesa Boogie or Vox amps more than life itself, I'd know you like a sound that's different from a Tweed, Brown or Blonde Fender (even though the first Marshall was a direct copy of a Tweed Bassman, it used different tubes and speakers).

I have an '89 Strat Plus with Gold Lace Sensors, an '07 Baja Tele with the Twisted Tele neck p/u and Broadcaster bridge p/u. I did some work on a '64 Melody Maker and the guy left town, so I have that here, too. I have a '58 Fender Bassman that only came as a bare chassis (so I bought the reissue cabinet, speakers and hardware when it came out in '91), a '64 Black Face Vibro Champ and a late '30s Oahu lap steel amp. The Bassman is 6L6 Push-Pull, the VC is 6V6 SE and the Oahu is 6L6G SE. A few pedals and some other odds & ends.

Unless cosmetics are made to be a big issue, the only reason to choose this kind of equipment is personal preference WRT sound and that's the only thing that counts, not someone else' opinion about whether an SE amp is capable of any kind of fidelity.

 

[highfigh]

Does it have any fidelity, let alone close to extremely high fidelity?

Have you actually listened to a recent SE amp?

 

[olddog]

Is the '82 a Red Knob Twin- the 130W Evil Twin with JBL D-130?

No it's just 105w blackface. The circuits for this series of 1982 Fender amplifiers were designed by Paul Rivera I believe.

The Less has the 3 PAF Gold Humbuckers. Real melow.

Have you actually listened to a recent SE amp?
No but I have heard a lot of good things about them latley. Decware is one Mfg. that comes to mind.
I guess I'm just gonna have to buckle up and shop a tube amp I can put on the pre-outs and take it to the speakers. That should give me the TUBE sound I would think. I just bought the Dennon AVR X-Mas so I just can't bring myself to replacing it yet
Whats that saying from Jaws? Gotta get a bigger boat?

 

[highfigh]

Is the '82 a Red Knob Twin- the 130W Evil Twin with JBL D-130?

No it's just 105w blackface. The circuits for this series of 1982 Fender amplifiers were designed by Paul Rivera I believe.

The Less has the 3 PAF Gold Humbuckers. Real melow.

Have you actually listened to a recent SE amp?
No but I have heard a lot of good things about them latley. Decware is one Mfg. that comes to mind.
I guess I'm just gonna have to buckle up and shop a tube amp I can put on the pre-outs and take it to the speakers. That should give me the TUBE sound I would think. I just bought the Dennon AVR X-Mas so I just can't bring myself to replacing it yet
Whats that saying from Jaws? Gotta get a bigger boat?

I thought the red knob amps were Rivera. Hmmm. That's a lot of power for a guitar. Ever tried a BF Vibrolux Reverb? Not nearly as heavy and works great for most rooms. More than a Deluxe Reverb but not as much as a Super or Twin.

If any good high-end shops are near you, they should have some pre-owned amps.

As mentioned, you could use the pre-out to another amp for the main speakers. That way, there's no need to replace it.

I have used a Conrad Johnson amp in my system, connected to the pre outs on a Sony ES integrated amp. It works well. It's still on my bench being recapped (no hurry in Summer).

 

[Chu Gai]

Thank you ALL!! This is by far the most outstanding and informative information I have gotten in a long time. Even the esoteric ones.
A thought did cross my mind while reading your post
Our passion for our preferences help us define our charcter, don’t you think?
I can see where I would be headed in the right direction with some room treatments but the HEAD HONCHO takes this idea very dimly and will take some convincing. Start small (bass traps) on the corners maybe?

How about first starting with maybe a few pictures of your room and present setup? That might suggest where approaches can be taken. As to bass traps, well sure, but that's not your present complaint.

In trying to understand the quality of what I need something like a ModWright SWL 9.0se or a Peachtree Nova maybe?

If you've got a bad room now and don't address it, you'll have a badroom with a ModWright or a Nova.

Other than that as my 2 channel speakers are dedicated what about a 50w or so stereo tube amp between the Dennon and the speakers or a DAC with tube output between the CD and Dennon then go with analog hook up to the Dennon. Just some thoughts I have had after reading all of your great post.

I'm not saying you won't enjoy going tubes, but you're kind of all over the place.

My room is not large 24x16, listening on the long axis, and I did get rid of a lot of high-end harshness by moving the speakers out about 4’ with a little tow in. Matching down firing subs outboard of both speakers by 2’. Carpeted floors. Textured walls. 8’ texture ceiling.

Picture worth thousand words. Take a few head on, to the sides, etc.

Thanks again for all this great advice and information to ponder. I have played at guitar for over 45 years and own dig and tube amps-why? My Less Paul just sounds better on a tube amp. Tubes are what I grew up with and I guess I just long for that perceived coloration. Thanks again for all this great advice and information to ponder.
I have played at guitar for over 45 years and own dig. And tube amps-why?
My Less Paul just sounds better on a tube amp where as my Fender Fat Strat sounds better on a Digital amp the difference being I guess is the type of music I generally play on each. Tubes are what I grew up with and I guess I just long for that perceived coloration.
Thanks again this is one of the best forums out there--why--because of you folks
Mike

There's music production and there's music reproduction.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Here's a link:
http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cache:DxIKusz4-gUJ:wireless.ee.washington.edu/indep_study/ben.pdf+Single+ended+tube+amplifier+design&cd=8&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

Once it's open, click on the link at the top to open the pdf so you can see the graphics.

As long as it's set so cutoff doesn't occur too early, they work well. What's worse- running it slightly into cutoff or crossover distortion in a Class AB amp?

Well, I found what I needed to judge it, the output impedance of that output transformer, 8 Ohms. While it may be fine for power transfer, they should have actually measure its frequency response into an actual loudspeaker. With that impedance it will have the same fr as the speaker, or very close, hence, horrendous. But, that is one mans opinion

Have you actually listened to a recent SE amp?

What is there to listen for? A personal preference or accuracy. It is certainly not accurate.

 

[GirgleMirt]

Btw, there's a world of a difference between a hifi amplifier, and a guitar amplifier. On the former, you're purposely overdriving the amp so that the sound distorts (distortion), while on the latter, where high fidelity is the goal, you want to eliminate or at least minimize any kind of distortion/aberrations.

And even guitar amps, some still prefer solid state, and with digital signal processing getting better and better, tubes will eventually become obsolete even on guitar amps, just like they've become obsolete in mostly every type of amp. Now I know some will say that tube distortion behave differently than SS distortion, but less and less, if you've tried a Line-6 (Hmm.. Spider 4 is out... ) or the such, you can still get that tube feel (play softly and little distortion, hard and get a lot distortion). It's not perfect, but it's getting better and better. There's no reason modeling won't totally replace real tubes.

And the same can be said for 'hifi' tube amps. There's already some models which do a pretty amazing job. But there will probably always be a market for those who want to see those shiny tubes, and are ready to do what it takes to keep the amp running...

 

[highfigh]

Well, I found what I needed to judge it, the output impedance of that output transformer, 8 Ohms. While it may be fine for power transfer, they should have actually measure its frequency response into an actual loudspeaker. With that impedance it will have the same fr as the speaker, or very close, hence, horrendous. But, that is one mans opinion



What is there to listen for? A personal preference or accuracy. It is certainly not accurate.

Do you have any good links that show why they're not able to stay clean/faithful to the input waveforms?

 

[highfigh]

Btw, there's a world of a difference between a hifi amplifier, and a guitar amplifier. On the former, you're purposely overdriving the amp so that the sound distorts (distortion), while on the latter, where high fidelity is the goal, you want to eliminate or at least minimize any kind of distortion/aberrations.

And even guitar amps, some still prefer solid state, and with digital signal processing getting better and better, tubes will eventually become obsolete even on guitar amps, just like they've become obsolete in mostly every type of amp. Now I know some will say that tube distortion behave differently than SS distortion, but less and less, if you've tried a Line-6 (Hmm.. Spider 4 is out... ) or the such, you can still get that tube feel (play softly and little distortion, hard and get a lot distortion). It's not perfect, but it's getting better and better. There's no reason modeling won't totally replace real tubes.

And the same can be said for 'hifi' tube amps. There's already some models which do a pretty amazing job. But there will probably always be a market for those who want to see those shiny tubes, and are ready to do what it takes to keep the amp running...

For live, coming close is fine as far as a guitar amp is concerned but in the studio, it's more important to get "the sound". Also, live really wants as much dependability as possible and not all players know how to maintain any kind of electronics, so they fail after showing some signs but not anything the user would necessarily see as a problem. I agree that SS is definitely getting better, but just like anything else, personal preference is the key. I have a Gallien-Krueger solid state amp and the sound is just lifeless. It's way too much power to be useful in most situations, too. For a mid-70s compressed, over-driven and nasty sound, it does pretty well, though. Plus, the demand for tubes has increased to the point that the manufacturers are improving the quality. Some of the rectifiers are a major problem, though, because they don't provide the same amount of voltage drop as the old ones did and that can put the B+ over the voltage tolerated by some of the caps. Messes up the bias, too.

THe great thing about electronics is that there are so many ways to accomplish things.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Do you have any good links that show why they're not able to stay clean/faithful to the input waveforms?

Here you go
I Googled output impedance and frequency response. Lots of hits. This is the first one:
http://www.transcendentsound.com/amplifier_output_impedance.htm

Here is an article from Stereophile, or all places
http://www.stereophile.com/reference/810/

What's his name, Carver demonstrated this with one of his amps by adding a ..5 Ohm or a 1 Ohm resistor to the speaker outputs to make it sound like a tube amp. Imaging what an 8 ohm would do?

 

[ski2xblack]

this is really degenerating

what's next, the no nfb argument? This thread is titled 'Getting that tube sound for less', not 'why mtrycrafts thinks tubes suck'. Look, we smell what you're steppin in, it's all been said before. OP likes the tube sound, simple as that.

Olddog, you still checking this thread? If you are after the tube sound on the cheap, consider getting a completely separate system. A minimalist SET based system could be had for far less than any tube amp powerful enough to drive those B&W's, and would have that tube sound in all it's glory. Need an office or bedroom system?

Alternately, I know that Decware makes a fantastic tube amp (Torii) which is powerful enough to drive those B&W's and has a very useful high freq contour control (which sounds like exactly what you're looking for). Check it out:
http://www.decware.com/newsite/TORII.htm
30-day return policy, lifetime warranty, too. You could probably haggle one for $2K or so.

 

[Chu Gai]

On that lifetime warranty, what happens if the vendor dies next week?

 

[ski2xblack]

On that lifetime warranty, what happens if the vendor dies next week?

Guess it is for Stever Deckerts lifetime then. He seems healthy right now. At least you're covered until he dies! (no dead smiley to insert here)

 

[ski2xblack]

On that lifetime warranty, what happens if the vendor dies next week?

His amps are so simple, all direct point to point wired, and built like brick ****-houses; they look like they would survive a nuclear blast.

Not sure what arrangements he has for posterity regarding warranty issues, though. Given his niche market and the personal attention he gives each customer, I strongly suspect he will stand behind his product while still drawing breath.

 

[Chu Gai]

Guess it is for Stever Deckerts lifetime then. He seems healthy right now. At least you're covered until he dies! (no dead smiley to insert here)

Here's one for you then,

 

[mtrycrafts]

On that lifetime warranty, what happens if the vendor dies next week?

Well, that is a lifetime. Didn't say whose life

 

[mtrycrafts]

what's next, the no nfb argument? This thread is titled 'Getting that tube sound for less', not 'why mtrycrafts thinks tubes suck'. Look, we smell what you're steppin in, it's all been said before. OP likes the tube sound, simple as that.

....

How silly of me to point out some facts. I forgot some don't care about facts, just opinions.

 

[highfigh]

On that lifetime warranty, what happens if the vendor dies next week?

Well, it would pretty much coincide, wouldn't it?

Is he a drummer for Spinal Tap?

 

[olddog]

what's next, the no nfb argument? This thread is titled 'Getting that tube sound for less', not 'why mtrycrafts thinks tubes suck'. Look, we smell what you're steppin in, it's all been said before. OP likes the tube sound, simple as that.

Olddog, you still checking this thread? If you are after the tube sound on the cheap, consider getting a completely separate system. A minimalist SET based system could be had for far less than any tube amp powerful enough to drive those B&W's, and would have that tube sound in all it's glory. Need an office or bedroom system?

Alternately, I know that Decware makes a fantastic tube amp (Torii) which is powerful enough to drive those B&W's and has a very useful high freq contour control (which sounds like exactly what you're looking for). Check it out:
http://www.decware.com/newsite/TORII.htm
30-day return policy, lifetime warranty, too. You could probably haggle one for $2K or so.

Yeh still listening and a studing my options. At 2k or so I believe I have found other more powerfull options in the used market which does not bother me. Should it for this type of purchase? Thanks for the link. I appreciate all the input.

 

[olddog]

Well last night late I think I found another option for app. 300.00 which is well withen by price range. Its a push pull intergrated design tube amp.
Specs.
output power:
≥52W×2（8Ω）

load impedance:
8Ω or 4Ω

Lose true degree:
≤2%(40W)

The power comsumption of power source:
220W

requency response:
20Hz---60KHz

signal inputs level:
≤300mv (±1.5dB10W）

SNR:
≥85dB(A weight)

Valve:
EL34B×4 6N1×4

Input Power Voltage:
AC110V/220V　

Weigs about 50 lbs.
What do ya'll think?