Getting that tube sound for less.

[olddog]

Question good folks?
I have a Dennon AVR 988 and have set aside 2 channels for dedicated music (I have other speakers for the HT) the speakers are B&W 805s, which I have been very happy with, but from the moment I bought them I knew they cried for TUBES.
Now I'm not a rich man and a tube amp is very expensive,sooo--I had a thought
What if I put in a ModWright SWL 9.0SE? Or would this be overkill? If so how about something like a Decware ZBOX?
Would either of these be the POOR MANS solution to a tube amp sound?
Thanks for your thoughts

 

[highfigh]

Question good folks?
I have a Dennon AVR 988 and have set aside 2 channels for dedicated music (I have other speakers for the HT) the speakers are B&W 805s, which I have been very happy with, but from the moment I bought them I knew they cried for TUBES.
Now I'm not a rich man and a tube amp is very expensive,sooo--I had a thought
What if I put in a ModWright SWL 9.0SE? Or would this be overkill? If so how about something like a Decware ZBOX?
Would either of these be the POOR MANS solution to a tube amp sound?
Thanks for your thoughts

A tube amp will make more difference than just putting something in the signal path.

 

[olddog]

I know but the cost of a 100w tube amp is rather high for me at this time, so I thought as I said ,this might be the "Poor Mans" solution. Not the best but would it work?

 

[Tex-amp]

Maybe something like a Jolida JD-1501P which as a tubed input stage mated with a solid state amp?

 

[olddog]

Thanks Tex-amp I'll check it out.

 

[sleepysurf]

IMHO, pairing a tube preamp with a SS amp is a very cost-effective solution. However, in the end, you'll eventually want to upgrade to a separate power amp for the B&W's, rather then routing the Modwright output through the Denon.

The Modwright SWL 9.0SE Signature, with the tube-rectified power supply will definitely sound more "tube-like" than the stock SWL 9.0SE with the solid-state power supply, not to mention giving you even more options for "tube rolling." I originally bought the SS rectified version, then later had it upgraded by Dan to the tube-rectifier-- BIG improvement in midrange vocals with virtually no loss in bass or dynamics.

 

[olddog]

Thanks for the input sleepysurf! As I am real new at some of this ,how does the Modright intergrate into the avr Dennon system? From Transport or TV sat reciever to Modright then Dennon?

 

[jinjuku]

Tube pre-amp FTW!

As long as your solid state amp is clean and linear it will just put out what it is fed.

 

[TLS Guy]

Question good folks?
I have a Dennon AVR 988 and have set aside 2 channels for dedicated music (I have other speakers for the HT) the speakers are B&W 805s, which I have been very happy with, but from the moment I bought them I knew they cried for TUBES.
Now I'm not a rich man and a tube amp is very expensive,sooo--I had a thought
What if I put in a ModWright SWL 9.0SE? Or would this be overkill? If so how about something like a Decware ZBOX?
Would either of these be the POOR MANS solution to a tube amp sound?
Thanks for your thoughts

What do you mean "cried for tubes?" That is a BS statement if ever I heard it. All I know is a good amp is a good amp. B & W speakers perform better with good solid state amps. The only difference with a tube amp is poorer performance due to the need for a power transformer. Modern speakers with high power demand below 600 Hz perform better with good direct coupled solid state amps, able to readily increase current as impedance falls. They are able to better match the load.

This tube nonsense is a superstition. Adding a tube stage as you suggest is a quality spoiler.

You would be much better off selling your current speakers and upgrading to the 804s or 805s, which have the fabulous B & W mid range driver.

Stop sniffing "audiophile" glue and come up for air!

 

[olddog]

I suppose thats why every high end listening room I visited during auditions had the Mac tube amps in the B&W rooms? I just want to take a little off the top as a fatiguing harshness from the CD at high volume with long listening times. Sound is after all a personal prefrence and these old ears while a little worn still have some good miles in them.

 

[Chu Gai]

I suppose thats why every high end listening room I visited during auditions had the Mac tube amps in the B&W rooms? I just want to take a little off the top as a fatiguing harshness from the CD at high volume with long listening times. Sound is after all a personal prefrence and these old ears while a little worn still have some good miles in them.

Have you ever done anything in your room with respect to treatments?

 

[adwilk]

I just want to take a little off the top as a fatiguing harshness from the CD at high volume with long listening times.

Thats a deficiency in your speakers and not the amplifier.

 

[ratso]

This tube nonsense is a superstition. Adding a tube stage as you suggest is a quality spoiler.

you forgot the "IN MY OPINION". tubes have a different sound which by the way can be measured - it's not like they're speaker cables or power cords. if you don't like them, then good for you.

as for the initial poster the cheapest way to add a tube sound would be with a buffer:

http://grantfidelity.com/site/node/75

 

[TLS Guy]

I suppose thats why every high end listening room I visited during auditions had the Mac tube amps in the B&W rooms? I just want to take a little off the top as a fatiguing harshness from the CD at high volume with long listening times. Sound is after all a personal prefrence and these old ears while a little worn still have some good miles in them.

Then for your problem, you need to roll off the top. Using a tube stage to do that is unnecessarily expensive and hit and miss. Adding deadening to the room
such as carpet and and furnishings might help also.

I know the B & W range pretty well, and I have reservations about their tow ways. It sounds to me with the B & W range you need to have the mid range driver, with the 4 kHz handover to the tweeter. In my view B & W is for those who want to spend 4.5 K and up on speakers.

 

[Loren42]

Question good folks?
I have a Dennon AVR 988 and have set aside 2 channels for dedicated music (I have other speakers for the HT) the speakers are B&W 805s, which I have been very happy with, but from the moment I bought them I knew they cried for TUBES.
Now I'm not a rich man and a tube amp is very expensive,sooo--I had a thought
What if I put in a ModWright SWL 9.0SE? Or would this be overkill? If so how about something like a Decware ZBOX?
Would either of these be the POOR MANS solution to a tube amp sound?
Thanks for your thoughts

Well, this is subjective, but I have a Dynaco preamp I bought from eBay for $120 and that did make a difference in the sound. I reverted the system to see if it was real, and I think it does.

However, you might just consider finding a Dynaco ST-70 amp. I have seen a few going for very reasonable prices lately and they are a great amp.

I am building my on amp based on two pairs of KT-88s, but I figure I have $1,000 invested. So, the ST-70 is a good bargain.

I think you really need a tube power amp to get where you want to be. A single tube in the preamp stage probably will not do it.

The difference between tube and transistor, as I understand it, has to do with distortion. Transistor amps tend to create distortion components all over the spectrum, whereas a tube amp limits that distortion more to second order harmonics. This give you a more warm tone to the sound.

I have heard it said that the human ear (and by that I mean the ear and brain) has an affinity to second harmonic distortion versus a broad spectrum distortion. Again, that is very subjective because it is hard to quantitatively measure.

Nevertheless, I tend to prefer the sound of tubes over my Harman-Kardon AVR receivers. The HKs are rated very well on paper, but lack the tonality that I like.

You can argue about the purity of a signal and I will not disagree that solid state amps do an outstanding job of reproduction, but my taste in sound leans more toward tubes.

Back to the point. I think that the best way to get the sound you seek is to have tubes in the final stage of the reproduction cycle. However, you can always start out cheap like I did with a tube preamp, but be prepared to go the next step with a tube power amp.

 

[Loren42]

What do you mean "cried for tubes?" That is a BS statement if ever I heard it. All I know is a good amp is a good amp. B & W speakers perform better with good solid state amps. The only difference with a tube amp is poorer performance due to the need for a power transformer. Modern speakers with high power demand below 600 Hz perform better with good direct coupled solid state amps, able to readily increase current as impedance falls. They are able to better match the load.

This tube nonsense is a superstition. Adding a tube stage as you suggest is a quality spoiler.

You would be much better off selling your current speakers and upgrading to the 804s or 805s, which have the fabulous B & W mid range driver.

Stop sniffing "audiophile" glue and come up for air!

You raise a very good point about performance with the B&W impedance curve. Tube amps lack the damping factor. Did you mean output transformer instead of power transformer?

I can't see where a power transformer would limit performance of a tube amp any more than it would for a solid state amp. Both amps use them. I can see a poorly designed power supply will impact performance, but that is the case with any amp.

As far as the tube sound being nonsense, I would differ with that opinion. Look to my previous post. There is a difference, but I would call it more of a coloration of the sound.

I think the differences are like differences in wine. Everyone has their preferences and that is okay. If absolute purity of sound is your goal, there is nothing wrong with that pursuit. Some people like that coloration they get from tubes. I find that is true for myself, but that is probably because I grew up listening to tube amps and there is a certain comfort in "going back home" again. Which is surely psychological, but every experience is anyway.

 

[highfigh]

IMHO, pairing a tube preamp with a SS amp is a very cost-effective solution. However, in the end, you'll eventually want to upgrade to a separate power amp for the B&W's, rather then routing the Modwright output through the Denon.

The Modwright SWL 9.0SE Signature, with the tube-rectified power supply will definitely sound more "tube-like" than the stock SWL 9.0SE with the solid-state power supply, not to mention giving you even more options for "tube rolling." I originally bought the SS rectified version, then later had it upgraded by Dan to the tube-rectifier-- BIG improvement in midrange vocals with virtually no loss in bass or dynamics.

Tube amps sound the way they do because of the output stage, not the power supply. A tube rectifier, especially if the amp is run hard, will allow the DC voltage to sag, which compresses the sound and makes it "breathe" or "bloom". The audio doesn't pass through any part of a rectifier.

What rectifier does this mod use? Does it have one tube, or two?

 

[GirgleMirt]

The difference between tube and transistor, as I understand it, has to do with distortion. Transistor amps tend to create distortion components all over the spectrum, whereas a tube amp limits that distortion more to second order harmonics. This give you a more warm tone to the sound.

It surely has to do with distortion, a tube amp has >50 times the distortion of a solid state. SS distortion when not clipped is basically irrelevant, can't really say the same for tubes. Check out the specs of any solid state and you'll see a THD (Total Harmonic Distortion) of about 0.03%. (Ex: $400 NAD 325bee) Tubes will be more like 1% (ex: 1500$ tube amp). Then there's the frequency response, SS will be better and deviate/roll off much less than a tube amp, there's signal to noise ratio again, SS will be better...

There's no question that solid state amps are superior in terms of accurate amplification than tubes... But in audiophile land...

Check out some measurements
http://stereophile.com/integratedamps/207cayin/index3.html
http://stereophile.com/integratedamps/1006nad/index5.html
http://stereophile.com/integratedamps/205prima/index3.html
http://stereophile.com/integratedamps/306outlaw/index3.html

Check out the THD+Ns, NAD 372 $900 vs 1100$ Prima Luna: Hell.. .a picture is worth a thousand words...

 

[highfigh]

I know but the cost of a 100w tube amp is rather high for me at this time, so I thought as I said ,this might be the "Poor Mans" solution. Not the best but would it work?

Have you seen Yaqin amps? If you don't have a problem with amps that are made in China, these have gotten some very strong thumbs up reviews.

http://www.google.com/products?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=Tmt&resnum=0&q=Yaqin+tube+amps&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=Kyu-SrfSAcne8Qbs8cW4AQ&sa=X&oi=product_result_group&ct=title&resnum=5

If you want to get your foot in the door of the world of tubes, look on ebay, Craig's List and Audiogon. To do it right, a "poor man's" solution won't make you very happy. A well-designed tube amp will last for decades and if you're able/willing to do some soldering, you can probably find a good deal on a nice amp that's due to have the electrolytic caps replaced and those are very easy to buy, don't cost an enormous amount, can be upgraded a bit and will keep it running for years. All amps that use high voltage will need cap replacement eventually but unless the ones that aren't electrolytic actually have a problem, they can stay.

Don't just jump into an amp like this, though. It's not hard to do but the caps need to be discharged and if they aren't, the stored voltage is dangerous (lethal, in some cases).

 

[highfigh]

It surely has to do with distortion, a tube amp has >50 times the distortion of a solid state. SS distortion when not clipped is basically irrelevant, can't really say the same for tubes. Check out the specs of any solid state and you'll see a THD (Total Harmonic Distortion) of about 0.03%. (Ex: $400 NAD 325bee) Tubes will be more like 1% (ex: 1500$ tube amp). Then there's the frequency response, SS will be better and deviate/roll off much less than a tube amp, there's signal to noise ratio again, SS will be better...

There's no question that solid state amps are superior in terms of accurate amplification than tubes... But in audiophile land...

One of the major determining factors in tube amp design, and one that increases the price the most, is the output transformers. Good ones are expensive enough but great ones are really expensive. HF response on a good tube amp can extend past 20KHz, but again, the amp's design will dictate this.

For this use, the power supply needs to be stable, unlike a guitar amp, which will often have a large number of followers because of the sag. This is best for people who don't play a flurry of notes at extreme volumes, though. For them, a dual rectifier or solid state is best because it won't sag.