German In-Akustik speaker cables?

J

Jens_Denmark

Enthusiast
I hate all the snake oil going on in the cable industry, but I do like 6mm2 cables so I have looked at these
https://www.in-akustik.de/en/cables-and-accessories/speaker-cable/excellence/excellence-speaker-cable-with-msr-technology-0060242/
for use with the two main speakers requiring cable runs of something like 6 meters.

I would, however, like to see some measurements of self-inductance as the "MSR®-Technology" has the sour smell of snake oil attached to it...

Anyone around here with experience with these cables?

Best regards,
Jens
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
No experience (and am thinking not too likely anyone here will have such cables but who knows) but the msr "technology" indeed has the unmistakable stench of bullshit. How much do they charge for this bullshit technology? Not good with the metric thing but for your length of run even 14g (AWG) would be sufficient.
 
J

Jens_Denmark

Enthusiast
No experience (and am thinking not too likely anyone here will have such cables but who knows) but the msr "technology" indeed has the unmistakable stench of bullshit. How much do they charge for this bullshit technology? Not good with the metric thing but for your length of run even 14g (AWG) would be sufficient.
My speaker impedance curve dips to 2 Ohms when run on single wires, so I prefer a 10AWG.

In the current setup they are bi-amped with two sets of 14 AWG wires, but this is because the receiver is incapable of driving them loud enough when using only two amplifiers. I'm planning to add a Lyngdorf power amp to the setup and as that just normal 2-channel amplifier I will be forced to use a single run for each speaker. Buying it 2nd hand so bi-amping with two is out of the question for financial reasons.

I quite sure that the MSR is BS, but on the other hand it may affect the self-inductance - especially if one is stupid enough to connect the center wire to the ground on the amp - and was wondering if someone might have made measurements.At least in theory it could have worse specs than a plain "8" cable.

I asked here because on several other forums I would have to scroll. through a hundred posts claiming the immense sonic benefits of the MSR or comments religiously recommending some ludicrously undersized and overpriced Audioquest crap cables :cool:
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
So how much do they charge for the cables? You can't find generic 10g speaker wire? You passive bi-amp with a receiver? Why?

ps Then again 12g would be fine, too.
 
Last edited:
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
My speaker impedance curve dips to 2 Ohms when run on single wires, so I prefer a 10AWG.

In the current setup they are bi-amped with two sets of 14 AWG wires, but this is because the receiver is incapable of driving them loud enough when using only two amplifiers. I'm planning to add a Lyngdorf power amp to the setup and as that just normal 2-channel amplifier I will be forced to use a single run for each speaker. Buying it 2nd hand so bi-amping with two is out of the question for financial reasons.

I quite sure that the MSR is BS, but on the other hand it may affect the self-inductance - especially if one is stupid enough to connect the center wire to the ground on the amp - and was wondering if someone might have made measurements.At least in theory it could have worse specs than a plain "8" cable.

I asked here because on several other forums I would have to scroll. through a hundred posts claiming the immense sonic benefits of the MSR or comments religiously recommending some ludicrously undersized and overpriced Audioquest crap cables :cool:
"MSR" tech and oxygen free copper should make you run the other way.

It sounds as if you own some boutique exotic incompetently designed speakers. If the impedance is dropping to 2 Ohms then that is almost certainly below the DC resistance of the drivers and proving crossover resonance. Once that happens the speakers are scrapping the bottom of the barrel no matter the cost an how fancy they look. This really tends to cluster in expensive exotics. An ultra low impedance like that is a massive red flag.

If you need 10 AWG cables look no further than Belden form parts express.
 
S

Speedskater

Audioholic Chief
Thoughts:
a] a 2 Ohm load is way too demanding for most receivers.
b] there are some very nice, unconventional loudspeakers that present a 2 Ohm load at high frequencies (think Apogee and Martin Logan). If someone was to gift me those speakers, I would place mono amplifiers directly behind the loudspeakers.
c] for low impedance loads, short heavy cables are better than long thin cables.
d] think about a StarQuad (4 conductor) cable.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
My speaker impedance curve dips to 2 Ohms when run on single wires, so I prefer a 10AWG.

In the current setup they are bi-amped with two sets of 14 AWG wires, but this is because the receiver is incapable of driving them loud enough when using only two amplifiers. I'm planning to add a Lyngdorf power amp to the setup and as that just normal 2-channel amplifier I will be forced to use a single run for each speaker. Buying it 2nd hand so bi-amping with two is out of the question for financial reasons.

I quite sure that the MSR is BS, but on the other hand it may affect the self-inductance - especially if one is stupid enough to connect the center wire to the ground on the amp - and was wondering if someone might have made measurements.At least in theory it could have worse specs than a plain "8" cable.

I asked here because on several other forums I would have to scroll. through a hundred posts claiming the immense sonic benefits of the MSR or comments religiously recommending some ludicrously undersized and overpriced Audioquest crap cables :cool:
What speakers are you using?
 
J

Jens_Denmark

Enthusiast
"MSR" tech and oxygen free copper should make you run the other way.

It sounds as if you own some boutique exotic incompetently designed speakers. If the impedance is dropping to 2 Ohms then that is almost certainly below the DC resistance of the drivers and proving crossover resonance. Once that happens the speakers are scrapping the bottom of the barrel no matter the cost an how fancy they look. This really tends to cluster in expensive exotics. An ultra low impedance like that is a massive red flag.

If you need 10 AWG cables look no further than Belden form parts express.
I know one of the guys making the Triangle Magellans and no, 2 Ohms is not below the combined resistance of the drivers and they are with the exception of Quad ESLs combined with Finnish dipole subs the by far best sounding speakers I have heard and owned. Belden and Parts Express is not really an option in Denmark (duty/tax is a deal breaker) ;-)
 
J

Jens_Denmark

Enthusiast
Thoughts:
a] a 2 Ohm load is way too demanding for most receivers.
b] there are some very nice, unconventional loudspeakers that present a 2 Ohm load at high frequencies (think Apogee and Martin Logan). If someone was to gift me those speakers, I would place mono amplifiers directly behind the loudspeakers.
c] for low impedance loads, short heavy cables are better than long thin cables.
d] think about a StarQuad (4 conductor) cable.
re a) Precisely why I bi-amp which helps, though the PSU and current delivery is still limited the impedance curves and phase angles become a little easier for each of the amplifiers.
re b) I am actually considering that solution as well Is also considering placing the Lyngdorf amp between the speakers and minimising the cable runs that way.
re c) Yes :)
re d) Thanks for the input
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
I know one of the guys making the Triangle Magellans and no, 2 Ohms is not below the combined resistance of the drivers and they are with the exception of Quad ESLs combined with Finnish dipole subs the by far best sounding speakers I have heard and owned. Belden and Parts Express is not really an option in Denmark (duty/tax is a deal breaker) ;-)
Tmcfig02.jpg


That's the impedance chart from Stereophile's review of your speakers. I gotta say, based on their findings I'm not so sure I would agree with you. They appear to be inaccurate and extremely- unreasonably hard to drive. I would very much like to listen to them and hear for myself, but my first impressions based on specs isn't very good...

The Triangle was one of the more sensitive speakers I have encountered, its B-weighted sensitivity clocking in at an estimated 93dB(B)/2.83V/m, which is well above average. It might be thought that this would make it suitable for use with low-powered or single-ended amplifiers. However, the speaker's impedance plot (fig.2) reveals it to be a horrible load for the partnering amplifier. The impedance magnitude remains between 2 and 4 ohms over almost the entire audioband, and there is an amplifier-punishing combination of 3.7 ohms and a 44 capacitive phase angle at 78Hz. An amplifier capable of hefty current delivery is going to be a must with this loudspeaker.


Even his subjective comments felt to me like he was reaching for positive things to say.

Tmcfig05.jpg
Tmcfig06.jpg
 
J

Jens_Denmark

Enthusiast
So how much do they charge for the cables? You can't find generic 10g speaker wire? You passive bi-amp with a receiver? Why?

ps Then again 12g would be fine, too.
They charge $3/ft but I actually get what I need almost for free because someone I know imports it on spools.
The speaker impedance is between 2 to 4 ohms and has som ugly capacitive phase angles. By splitting each speaker on two amps they become an easier load for the receiver.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
They charge $3/ft but I actually get what I need almost for free because someone I know imports it on spools.
The speaker impedance is between 2 to 4 ohms and has som ugly capacitive phase angles. By splitting each speaker on two amps they become an easier load for the receiver.
$3/ft is a lot less than I was expecting, tbh. That doesn't seem to ridiculous for cables. I agree with the sentiment that as long as you're using a high enough gauge any all copper, competently made cables should be just fine. If you're getting it almost free that's awesome. I just avoid spending big bucks on nebulous claims and cables that need batteries in them, lol.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
I know one of the guys making the Triangle Magellans and no, 2 Ohms is not below the combined resistance of the drivers and they are with the exception of Quad ESLs combined with Finnish dipole subs the by far best sounding speakers I have heard and owned. Belden and Parts Express is not really an option in Denmark (duty/tax is a deal breaker) ;-)
So I assume you are talking about the Triangle Magellan concerto.


I see four woofers. The spec. is minimal impedance 2.5 ohms. So that could be above the paralleled DC resistance of the woofers. That sure restricts the choice of amplification to say the least.

I have not heard a Gradient sub in years. They were designed specifically for the Quad ESL and the only sub Peter Walker endorsed to pair with the Quad ESL



I have no idea what cables are available in Finland. I would just buy a quality stranded copper 10 AWG cable. With that impedance if the cable is any length you might have to double them up. You will need to keep track of the resistance. You measure by joining the + & - at one end and measuring the other end. That resistance can be no more than 0.125 ohms in other words one eighth of an ohm. Really this last point is all you have to worry about.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
So I assume you are talking about the Triangle Magellan concerto.


I see four woofers. The spec. is minimal impedance 2.5 ohms. So that could be above the paralleled DC resistance of the woofers. That sure restricts the choice of amplification to say the least.

I have not heard a Gradient sub in years. They were designed specifically for the Quad ESL and the only sub Peter Walker endorsed to pair with the Quad ESL



I have no idea what cables are available in Finland. I would just buy a quality stranded copper 10 AWG cable. With that impedance if the cable is any length you might have to double them up. You will need to keep track of the resistance. You measure by joining the + & - at one end and measuring the other end. That resistance can be no more than 0.125 ohms in other words one eighth of an ohm. Really this last point is all you have to worry about.
I posted Stereophile's review and measurements above. I'm still learning to properly interpret impedance graphs, but even to me it looks alarming.
 
J

Jens_Denmark

Enthusiast
View attachment 36323

That's the impedance chart from Stereophile's review of your speakers. I gotta say, based on their findings I'm not so sure I would agree with you. They appear to be inaccurate and extremely- unreasonably hard to drive. I would very much like to listen to them and hear for myself, but my first impressions based on specs isn't very good...

The Triangle was one of the more sensitive speakers I have encountered, its B-weighted sensitivity clocking in at an estimated 93dB(B)/2.83V/m, which is well above average. It might be thought that this would make it suitable for use with low-powered or single-ended amplifiers. However, the speaker's impedance plot (fig.2) reveals it to be a horrible load for the partnering amplifier. The impedance magnitude remains between 2 and 4 ohms over almost the entire audioband, and there is an amplifier-punishing combination of 3.7 ohms and a 44 capacitive phase angle at 78Hz. An amplifier capable of hefty current delivery is going to be a must with this loudspeaker.


Even his subjective comments felt to me like he was reaching for positive things to say.

View attachment 36325View attachment 36324
I know the Stereophile review very well. It's 15 years old and from a pre-production or the very first series of the speaker.

Verified by REW measurements I have a very linear response 15 Hz to 12 KHz in my room, above 12 KHz the response rolls off slightly. Some of the roll-of is due to acoustic treatment of the room which also keeps the room's otherwise generally unpleasant decay under control. The Magellans are helped by dual B&W ASW800 subs with a crossover set at 60Hz.

Actually, I did not come here to discuss your opinion on my speakers but to get feedback about the self-inductance of the In-Akustik cables ;) but on the other hand it is quite entertaining.
I have heard a lot of speakers, owned a lot of speakers and did extensive in room testing before choosing these and they were superior to B&W 804 D3 and the Dali Epicon, though the latter came close in the ability to disappear completely and have voices come alive.
One word of warning should accompany the Magellans: They are very high! If the room has hard, reflective surfaces on floor and ceiling and the ceiling height is low enough that the tweeter and midrange is close to the mid-point both of the first order reflections arrive simultaneously smearing details and making the sound "hard" or shrill. They probably had a French castle in mind when designing them :)
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
I know the Stereophile review very well. It's 15 years old and from a pre-production or the very first series of the speaker.

Verified by REW measurements I have a very linear response 15 Hz to 12 KHz in my room, above 12 KHz the response rolls off slightly. Some of the roll-of is due to acoustic treatment of the room which also keeps the room's otherwise generally unpleasant decay under control. The Magellans are helped by dual B&W ASW800 subs with a crossover set at 60Hz.

Actually, I did not come here to discuss your opinion on my speakers but to get feedback about the self-inductance of the In-Akustik cables ;) but on the other hand it is quite entertaining.
I have heard a lot of speakers, owned a lot of speakers and did extensive in room testing before choosing these and they were superior to B&W 804 D3 and the Dali Epicon, though the latter came close in the ability to disappear completely and have voices come alive.
One word of warning should accompany the Magellans: They are very high! If the room has hard, reflective surfaces on floor and ceiling and the ceiling height is low enough that the tweeter and midrange is close to the mid-point both of the first order reflections arrive simultaneously smearing details and making the sound "hard" or shrill. They probably had a French castle in mind when designing them :)
Yeah, I realized I was being kind of douchey beating up on your speakers after I made the post. I've never heard them so I really don't know how they sound in any setup. For all I know they might sound amazing, but just be very difficult to drive.

Based on the measurements your observation that they sound very high makes sense tho. I know not all speakers are designed to be perfectly accurate and some aim for certain colorations that some find more appealing than a flat, accurate speaker. There's nothing wrong with that.
 
J

Jens_Denmark

Enthusiast
So I assume you are talking about the Triangle Magellan concerto.


I see four woofers. The spec. is minimal impedance 2.5 ohms. So that could be above the paralleled DC resistance of the woofers. That sure restricts the choice of amplification to say the least.

I have not heard a Gradient sub in years. They were designed specifically for the Quad ESL and the only sub Peter Walker endorsed to pair with the Quad ESL



I have no idea what cables are available in Finland. I would just buy a quality stranded copper 10 AWG cable. With that impedance if the cable is any length you might have to double them up. You will need to keep track of the resistance. You measure by joining the + & - at one end and measuring the other end. That resistance can be no more than 0.125 ohms in other words one eighth of an ohm. Really this last point is all you have to worry about.
OMG no, that is the Grand Concert which cost something like 25 times what I paid for the Concerts ($290.000,-/set versus $32.000,-/set list prices versus the §11.000,- I paid)
The Gradient/ESL combo is precisely what I meant. Could not play very loud but recreated an insane 3D soundscape when playing the right recordings.

Because of the impedance and the phase angles I would prefer to keep the resistance even lower than 0.125 ohms and the AWG10 would keep it below 0,04 ohm for the 6 meter cable run.
In the end I will most likely do as @Speedskater suggested: Placing either a mono pwr-amp behind each speaker or at least minimizing the cable run significantly.
Either way I'm not buying the In-Akustik cables.
 
J

Jens_Denmark

Enthusiast
Yeah, I realized I was being kind of douchey beating up on your speakers after I made the post.
No worries :)
Based just on the measurements and the Stereophile review I would never have bought them - and I would never have bought them at the normal retail price either. Actually the were only included in the testing because an acquaintance got divorced and that made them available at a fraction of the normal price.
 

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