Full Range with Sub?

[ahblaza]

Mark, I will try to supply a little more info so as to determine which cabling would be adequate for my setup.
Phono preamp:Music Hall PA1 2 mm MC Phono Preamplifier PA 1 2 Phono Preamp | eBay

Cartridge:
Audio Technica 440 MLa Micro Line Phono Cartridge

Tonearm:
Jelco Tonearm

If you could decipher any info from the specs I have provided, I would appreciate it.
Thanks Jeff

 

[KEW]

Hey Kurt, this is what Tom at PSA responded with: here is the graph of the rolloff
http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0153/1797/files/XS30_FR.jpg?42

He informed me that my XS30s have (approximately) a 10dB octave rolloff starting around 28-30Hz: This will give much more control over the frquency response because of the advanced DSP engine integrated into the subwoofer amplifiers. So, what do you think. I'm going to try some two channel listening this evening with both subs dialed in according to Mark's (TLS) suggestions. Thanks again my friend.
Cheers Jeff

The 10db roll-off is the bottom end of the sub's FR. That is not what we need.
What I meant was the Roll-off due to the Low Pass Filter of the sub. The idea is you want the sub to pick up the bass at the same rate as the ARX drops it.
Based on Dr. Marks statements:

Now your speakers will roll off 24 db per octave. The crossover slope of your receiver low pass is 24 db per octave. So you will get the best setting your receiver crossover point on you sub to 50 Hz.

It sounds like your AVR will allow you to make the ideal settings!
I would stick with that.
If you want to avoid the AVR's bass management for some reason, Ask PSA what teh roll-off rate is due to the subwoofer crossover. IOW, if you set the sub XO at 80Hz, is it down 12bd or 24db at 160Hz?

 

[ahblaza]

The 10db roll-off is the bottom end of the sub's FR. That is not what we need.
What I meant was the Roll-off due to the Low Pass Filter of the sub. The idea is you want the sub to pick up the bass at the same rate as the ARX drops it.
Based on Dr. Marks statements:

It sounds like your AVR will allow you to make the ideal settings!
I would stick with that.
If you want to avoid the AVR's bass management for some reason, Ask PSA what teh roll-off rate is due to the subwoofer crossover. IOW, if you set the sub XO at 80Hz, is it down 12bd or 24db at 160Hz?

I think I mis-understood Dr. Marks quote, I really don't want to avoid the receiver's xover setting, so he is telling me to set the crossover in the receiver for the mains at 50Hz, how can I run them full range that way? I thought he was referring to setting the mains to full and adjust the subs crossover to 50 Hz. I'm lost here kurt, I just want to try and run the mains full range with sub engaged, should I use the double bass option in the setup menu, if so could you explain. You're saying to not avoid the AVR's bass management, correct, if so please tell me in laymans terms how to run my mains full range with sub using the AVR's bass management. Thanks a lot.
Jeff

 

[j_garcia]

How is your Emo working out John, it really is impressive on paper, but seems still some glitches that need worked out. What are your thoughts if you didn't purchase the Emo yet between the two (975 or 200) ? Thanks my friend.

The UMC still has the same issue with the default audio setting assignments.

You're saying to not avoid the AVR's bass management, correct, if so please tell me in laymans terms how to run my mains full range with sub using the AVR's bass management. Thanks a lot.
Jeff

My advice is not to. Set them small with the lowest x-over that works for you and go from there. Run them full range for music sure, but for movies, I'd still want the crossed IMHO.

 

[KEW]

I think I mis-understood Dr. Marks quote, I really don't want to avoid the receiver's xover setting, so he is telling me to set the crossover in the receiver for the mains at 50Hz, how can I run them full range that way? I thought he was referring to setting the mains to full and adjust the subs crossover to 50 Hz. I'm lost here kurt, I just want to try and run the mains full range with sub engaged, should I use the double bass option in the setup menu, if so could you explain. You're saying to not avoid the AVR's bass management, correct, if so please tell me in laymans terms how to run my mains full range with sub using the AVR's bass management. Thanks a lot.
Jeff

I do not have decent familiarity with your receiver and am not sure I understand what you don't understand. Here are a couple of thoughts I hope to help.

Use the graph below as a reference. This looks like it is for an AVR crossover at about 100Hz. The yellow line represents the signal being sent to the sub and the green line is the signal sent to the mains. The red line is the combination of the sub plus the main signal, which is a nice flat line. That is how typical AVR bass management works.
In your case, you are wanting the mains to run a full range signal. Effectively, this lowers the roll-off of the main speakers to the frequency at which they naturally roll-off.
Now, with the speakers rolling off at their natural roll-off frequency, your concern is only controlling the signal to the sub so it will complement the speakers output in the low frequencies.

On most AVR's, you can set the Main speakers to "Large", which sends them the full audio signal without filtering out the low frequencies (IOW, the crossover setting is only used for the sub output, not the main speaker outputs). If this is the case with your AVR, then setting the XO at 50Hz will only provide a LPF for the sub output and your A5's get the full range signal with out any alteration.
Setting your AVR to 50 Hz will allow for both:
1) Your sub to pick up the bass at the frequency where your speakers naturally roll-off.
2) Your sub to add the bass at a close match to the rate at which your speakers naturally roll off (24db per octave).

This is effectively the same as only using the crossover at the subwoofer amp. However, there are three benefits to using the AVR:
1) The AVR is known to roll-off at 24db/octave (you can check with PSA about the roll-off of the Amp's crossover - it may be the desired 24db/octave as well).
2) The AVR control is more exact - you know exactly where the setting is (50Hz is 50Hz). With the rotary sub control, you typically have a range of 150Hz associated with 3/4 of a revolution of a knob and the tic marks are at intervals of 20hz (minimum). I'm guessing you may get within +/- 5Hz of your desired setting on a good day.
3) The sub setting can be inadvertently altered if a dog or kid brushes against the knob (or you when reaching for other controls).

One last comment. I suspect Merlin is based on manufacturer spec's, and errs on the side of "more bass is better than not enough". IOW, if your receiver allows, try 45Hz as a XO point and see how it compares with 50Hz.

 

[psbfan9]

I just want to try and run the mains full range with sub engaged, should I use the double bass option in the setup menu, if so could you explain. You're saying to not avoid the AVR's bass management, correct, if so please tell me in laymans terms how to run my mains full range with sub using the AVR's bass management. Thanks a lot.
Jeff

The only way to run the speakers full range and have output from the sub is to turn on the 'double bass' setting. This is how it is on my Onkyo 608. Your Onkyo receiver should be the same.

 

[TLS Guy]

I think I mis-understood Dr. Marks quote, I really don't want to avoid the receiver's xover setting, so he is telling me to set the crossover in the receiver for the mains at 50Hz, how can I run them full range that way? I thought he was referring to setting the mains to full and adjust the subs crossover to 50 Hz. I'm lost here kurt, I just want to try and run the mains full range with sub engaged, should I use the double bass option in the setup menu, if so could you explain. You're saying to not avoid the AVR's bass management, correct, if so please tell me in laymans terms how to run my mains full range with sub using the AVR's bass management. Thanks a lot.
Jeff

Once again look on page 48 of your manual. Go to speaker set up, set your speakers you want full range to full band, and the sub to double bass. Set the AVR crossover to 50 Hz for starters and then try 60 Hz and see which sounds best.

I would still be cautious about running those speakers full range for HT. I have read the Audio Adviser pitch, none of that really tells me what counts. I can assure firms like ATC and SEAS with their EXCEL range are not price gouging and recklessly profiteering.

 

[TLS Guy]

Mark, I will try to supply a little more info so as to determine which cabling would be adequate for my setup.
Phono preamp:Music Hall PA1 2 mm MC Phono Preamplifier PA 1 2 Phono Preamp | eBay

Cartridge:
Audio Technica 440 MLa Micro Line Phono Cartridge

Tonearm:
Jelco Tonearm

If you could decipher any info from the specs I have provided, I would appreciate it.
Thanks Jeff

I have not had time today. I just got back to Benedict lake late yesterday afternoon, after my second cataract surgery last Friday. In the week I was away we have lost about a foot of the 33" snow pack we still had when I left.

Today we had a strong SE wind in the mid forties increasing the melt. However the culverts on my private road are blocked with ice and large snow pack. There was a huge lake forming at the 2 ft diameter culvert threatening a sudden road wash out, and water starting to flow over the road at another. My neighbor had to have another two coronary artery stents placed last Thursday and is also useless at the moment. The other residencies on the road are seasonal residencies.

So I have had to organize getting the snow banks excavated out of the culverts and the culverts steamed. So far we only have the large culvert open, and it is flowing white water at the moment.

We have had a massive series of snow falls here this winter with no thaws at all until about 10 days ago.

The old JD Model A has worked really hard this winter. The snow also has a huge moisture content and the old girl made one hell of a racket from her two huge cylinders.

If I forget to get back to this issue remind me. My priority at the moment is preventing road washout, as I have a lot of money and especially time on the two JD tractors invested in this road.

 

[lsiberian]

I don't advise running woofers full-range unless you know they can handle it. There are certainly capable drivers, but your subwoofer is still going to do a better job in the upper range. That said I can see it as a substitute for multiple subwoofers helping to smooth out response. I am just concerned about over-driving the woofers in your speakers.

 

[ahblaza]

Thanks to all, I will experiment with the AVR's XO and not run full range, I don't even know what I was thinking, actually I don't think I was. Thanks again. I hope you get out of your Blizzard Mark, I quess if you don't have ATC or SEAS drivers don't attempt to run full range, also I don't get the price gouging and reckless profiteering comment. In the meantime I will use the tonearm cable I have unless someone else can reco a good 5 pin DIN to male RCA w/ground cable. Thanks again to all, and John what do you think of the Outlaw 975 vrs. the EMO 200? Kurt thank you so much for the easy to understand explanation.
Cheers Jeff

 

[fmw]

Thank you, can you literally tell me how to do this specifically, very serious my man.
Thanks Jeff

Sorry, I was away from the thread for a while. If no one else answered you, the normal way to use your speakers full range is to choose the "large" option in the speaker setup menu. That will allow the processor to send the full frequency range to them. Then it is just a matter of adjusting the volume and crossover frequency of the sub.

 

[ahblaza]

Sorry, I was away from the thread for a while. If no one else answered you, the normal way to use your speakers full range is to choose the "large" option in the speaker setup menu. That will allow the processor to send the full frequency range to them. Then it is just a matter of adjusting the volume and crossover frequency of the sub.

Thank you, IOW I don't need to use the double bass option, instead use the sub's crossover which as Kurt pointed out may not be as accurate as using the AVR's, if you set 50Hz in the AVR that's what you get, thanks again.
Cheers Jeff

 

[gtpsuper24]

I would still be cautious about running those speakers full range for HT. I have read the Audio Adviser pitch, none of that really tells me what counts. I can assure firms like ATC and SEAS with their EXCEL range are not price gouging and recklessly profiteering.

Its not really a pitch. Its actual science and XBL2 woofers are highly regarded and its measureable. The Arx woofers are made in the same factory and are pretty much a 5.3" version of the Exodus Anarchy woofer: DIYCable.com : Intro » Home » Exodus Anarchy » Drivers in the Arx are equal or better than some speakers cost double or triple the price of compariable Arx models.

I still wouldn't recommend running towers at full range and especially so at or near reference. Theres probably very few towers actually capable of true full range performance, DIY not counting. Nothing that I'm aware of under $3-4k is close to true full range performance and definitely not any where near reference capable.

Ahblaza I keep the A5s at 60hrz and even at extreme outputs and watching heavy action movies, the mid is barely moving and the woofers have some excursion but nothing to be worried about. For what they are triple 5.3" woofers they are just as capable as some 6.5" woofers. Music I've had luck running them full range or at least cut down to 40hrz. But movies anything lower than 60hrz IMO is just wasting power and killing the headroom of the woofers, when your PSAs are much more capable of 60hrz and lower.

 

[TLS Guy]

Thank you, IOW I don't need to use the double bass option, instead use the sub's crossover which as Kurt pointed out may not be as accurate as using the AVR's, if you set 50Hz in the AVR that's what you get, thanks again.
Cheers Jeff

Yes, you do need to use the double bass option, otherwise you will have no sub output unless there is an LFE track and the sub will only reproduce the LFE track if there is one.

If you want bass output from your sub and towers when there is no LFE and when there is, you must use the double bass option. Your AVR crossover will still need to be used as it will determine the upper roll off point of the sub.

On your Onkyo this option is double bass, but it is the same as LFE + main on everything else.

 

[ahblaza]

Its not really a pitch. Its actual science and XBL2 woofers are highly regarded and its measureable. The Arx woofers are made in the same factory and are pretty much a 5.3" version of the Exodus Anarchy woofer: DIYCable.com : Intro » Home » Exodus Anarchy » Drivers in the Arx are equal or better than some speakers cost double or triple the price of compariable Arx models.

I still wouldn't recommend running towers at full range and especially so at or near reference. Theres probably very few towers actually capable of true full range performance, DIY not counting. Nothing that I'm aware of under $3-4k is close to true full range performance and definitely not any where near reference capable.

Ahblaza I keep the A5s at 60hrz and even at extreme outputs and watching heavy action movies, the mid is barely moving and the woofers have some excursion but nothing to be worried about. For what they are triple 5.3" woofers they are just as capable as some 6.5" woofers. Music I've had luck running them full range or at least cut down to 40hrz. But movies anything lower than 60hrz IMO is just wasting power and killing the headroom of the woofers, when your PSAs are much more capable of 60hrz and lower.

Thanks Chad, I will give the 60Hz XO a shot, I just run them at 80Hz and let the subs handle the rest, but I do know the A5s are quite capable of the 60 Hz.
Cheers Jeff

 

[gtpsuper24]

Thanks Chad, I will give the 60Hz XO a shot, I just run them at 80Hz and let the subs handle the rest, but I do know the A5s are quite capable of the 60 Hz.
Cheers Jeff

I think 60hrz with mains adds that extra little kick in the midbass and dynamics. With my room the sub at 80hrz and the mains at 60hrz works great, the A5s fill in that null around 70-75hrz.

 

[ahblaza]

I think 60hrz with mains adds that extra little kick in the midbass and dynamics. With my room the sub at 80hrz and the mains at 60hrz works great, the A5s fill in that null around 70-75hrz.

Chad, I don't understand that comment, I think I'm in a brain fog lately, how do you accomplish this? Are saying that you use the AVR to set the A5s to crossover at 60Hz and the sub's crossover set to 80Hz? I always thought it best to use the AVR's bass management, in essence are you utilizing two crossovers, the sub's and AVR's? Sorry for the lame question.