Full Range with Sub?

[ahblaza]

Hey guys,
I was messing with the settings in my receiver (809) and I have the option to run my mains full range with sub. Forgive my ignorance, how do you do this as you can't xover the mains to the sub running then full range. Would I have to use the sub's internal xover, this still does not make sense to me. Running mains full range with sub, at what frequency (Hz) signal would be sent to sub? Told you this was ignorance. Thanks, really curious.
Cheers Jeff

 

[j_garcia]

Onkyos should have a setting for Mains + Sub. IMO it should not really be an option because you will then overlap the frequencies that are sent to the sub, but I don't really know what frequencies from the mains would be sent; presumably or hopefully only the LFE or a limited, lower range (bottom octave). If your other speakers are set to small then no, you would still leave the sub's x-over at its highest point.

 

[ahblaza]

Onkyos should have a setting for Mains + Sub. IMO it should not really be an option because you will then overlap the frequencies that are sent to the sub, but I don't really know what frequencies from the mains would be sent; presumably or hopefully only the LFE or a limited, lower range (bottom octave). If your other speakers are set to small then no, you would still leave the sub's x-over at its highest point.

Thanks John, I haven't seen a section in the Onkyo manual, really don't refer to it much. Where do you think the mains + sub reference may be, I would imagine in the speaker setup page or audio adjust. I will look to see if there is a reference to Mains + sub, where would you look? This may be all irrelevant soon, as I am seriously considering an av processor. Marantz 7005, Outlaw 975 or Emo 200. I'm not a big fan of Audyssey, so really it's between the the 975 or 200. I'm leaning heavily towards the Outlaw, simple and no problems noted. How is your Emo working out John, it really is impressive on paper, but seems still some glitches that need worked out. What are your thoughts if you didn't purchase the Emo yet between the two (975 or 200) ? Thanks my friend.

 

[fmw]

My advice is to run your mains full range. Let the sub act as a supplement to the bass frequencies. There are many advantages to this not the least of which is that you can use a lower frequency to cross over to the sub thereby reducing any localization.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I know on Denon, the LFE+ Main is in the Subwoofer category.

Something like Manual Setup --> Speaker Setup --> Subwoofer Setup.

 

[ahblaza]

My advice is to run your mains full range. Let the sub act as a supplement to the bass frequencies. There are many advantages to this not the least of which is that you can use a lower frequency to cross over to the sub thereby reducing any localization.

Thank you, can you literally tell me how to do this specifically, very serious my man.
Thanks Jeff

 

[ahblaza]

I know on Denon, the LFE+ Main is in the Subwoofer category.

Something like Manual Setup --> Speaker Setup --> Subwoofer Setup.

I have to look, I don't think I have a separate subwoofer setup in the speaker menu, thanks brother

 

[afterlife2]

Like JG said there Is one on the Menu section on the Onkyo. I remember seeing on my 707 when I had it. Sorry I can't help you, but I did see that option.

 

[panteragstk]

On my 809 there is the option for double bass. It says in the manual that it sends the lower frequencies from the main channels to the LFE output. I would guess it will send whatever you have your crossover set to. It is nice for music, but movies and TV sounded very boomy to me. I ended up setting my mains at 40hz (they don't go much below that anyway) and everything is fine. It is in the speaker configuration section of the setup screen.

 

[KEW]

Go to the SVS website.
Scroll to the bottom of the page and in the middle, you will see a link labeled "Merlin".
Merlin - SVS
Ostensibly, it is a tool for selecting an SVS sub to match your speakers, but it is also an adviser for sub settings.
Not using the bass management of the AVR equates to what they label "2 Channel Application"
I don't know which speakers you plan to do this with, but for Home Theater Direct, Level 3 Bookshelf Speakers, they recommend:

1) LPF at 50Hz

Set the sub crossover at 50Hz. From what I have seen this is approximately 10 Hz above the low end of your speakers FR, which gives adequate overlap to avoid "holes" in the FR.

2) 12db/octave roll-off

Some subs have the ability to select the rolloff slope, most are fixed (slope should be in manual, but you may need to call - easy with PSA!) SVS allows this slope to be either 12 or 24, and for the HTD's, 12 better matches the natural rolloff.
I think Merlin provides some very good "rule of thumb" principals, but think of it as a good starting point. I'm pretty sure their recommendations are based on speaker manufacturer specifications, which have plenty of their own variability. IOW, you may want to play with fine-tuning, but this should be a good start.

 

[ahblaza]

Go to the SVS website.
Scroll to the bottom of the page and in the middle, you will see a link labeled "Merlin".
Merlin - SVS
Ostensibly, it is a tool for selecting an SVS sub to match your speakers, but it is also an adviser for sub settings.
Not using the bass management of the AVR equates to what they label "2 Channel Application"
I don't know which speakers you plan to do this with, but for Home Theater Direct, Level 3 Bookshelf Speakers, they recommend:

Set the sub crossover at 50Hz. From what I have seen this is approximately 10 Hz above the low end of your speakers FR, which gives adequate overlap to avoid "holes" in the FR.

Some subs have the ability to select the rolloff slope, most are fixed (slope should be in manual, but you may need to call - easy with PSA!) SVS allows this slope to be either 12 or 24, and for the HTD's, 12 better matches the natural rolloff.
I think Merlin provides some very good "rule of thumb" principals, but think of it as a good starting point. I'm pretty sure their recommendations are based on speaker manufacturer specifications, which have plenty of their own variability. IOW, you may want to play with fine-tuning, but this should be a good start.

Thanks Kurt, I would be using the ARX A5s and the Merlin suggests a 50 Hz LPF with 24 dB slope, my XS30s are not specific to the designated slope and know they must be fixed as I do not have the ability to select 12 or 24 dB, I will call Tom (very easy indeed) and see where I'm at. So correct me if I'm wrong, I'm running my mains (A5s) full range with sub in the speaker setup menu and on the sub (XS30) set the amp's LPF at 50Hz and adjust gain to blend sub with mains, this is with sub out cable from receiver to LFE on sub. This would be stereo only listening correct, as using the other speakers in my HT setup I would have to select Xovers for center and surrounds and this would conflict with the manual setting of the LPF on the sub. Thanks my friend.
Cheers Jeff

 

[ahblaza]

On my 809 there is the option for double bass. It says in the manual that it sends the lower frequencies from the main channels to the LFE output. I would guess it will send whatever you have your crossover set to. It is nice for music, but movies and TV sounded very boomy to me. I ended up setting my mains at 40hz (they don't go much below that anyway) and everything is fine. It is in the speaker configuration section of the setup screen.

According to the Merlin SVS thing, your mains should be crossed over at 30-50Hz above the lowest FR your speakers could produce which according to them is 80Hz setting. That 40Hz setting with the 52's seems really low, are they capable of handling that FR in the 40's or lower?

 

[KEW]

Thanks Kurt, I would be using the ARX A5s and the Merlin suggests a 50 Hz LPF with 24 dB slope, my XS30s are not specific to the designated slope and know they must be fixed as I do not have the ability to select 12 or 24 dB, I will call Tom (very easy indeed) and see where I'm at. So correct me if I'm wrong, I'm running my mains (A5s) full range with sub in the speaker setup menu and on the sub (XS30) set the amp's LPF at 50Hz and adjust gain to blend sub with mains, this is with sub out cable from receiver to LFE on sub. This would be stereo only listening correct, as using the other speakers in my HT setup I would have to select Xovers for center and surrounds and this would conflict with the manual setting of the LPF on the sub. Thanks my friend.
Cheers Jeff

Aside from my not knowing the particulars of your AVR, that is it!

I think that going to be one sweet set-up!
With a bookshelf speaker like the HTD's, I wonder if it is wise to run them full range, but with the A5, I'd expect them to handle higher SPL at lower frequencies with much more aplomb!

Let us know what PSA says!

 

[psbfan9]

On my 809 there is the option for double bass. It says in the manual that it sends the lower frequencies from the main channels to the LFE output. I would guess it will send whatever you have your crossover set to. It is nice for music, but movies and TV sounded very boomy to me. I ended up setting my mains at 40hz (they don't go much below that anyway) and everything is fine. It is in the speaker configuration section of the setup screen.

According to the Merlin SVS thing, your mains should be crossed over at 30-50Hz above the lowest FR your speakers could produce which according to them is 80Hz setting. That 40Hz setting with the 52's seems really low, are they capable of handling that FR in the 40's or lower?

Onkyo 608, EMP E55ti speakers.

When running my speakers full range, and like panteragstk said, I had to use the double bass setting to get output from my sub. At times the sound did get a little 'cluttered'. I don't think I was bottoming out the drivers, but I may have been close.
Now, I have the speakers xover at 60. I figured I may as well let the sub do what it's built to do, handle the lower frequency's.

 

[ahblaza]

Onkyo 608, EMP E55ti speakers.

When running my speakers full range, and like panteragstk said, I had to use the double bass setting to get output from my sub. At times the sound did get a little 'cluttered'. I don't think I was bottoming out the drivers, but I may have been close.
Now, I have the speakers xover at 60. I figured I may as well let the sub do what it's built to do, handle the lower frequency's.

At 60 that sounds much more reasonable, I do believe the 55s are bit more capable down there. 40 is pushing things a bit, no sense taking the chance and like you said enjoy your sub.

 

[TLS Guy]

I have to look, I don't think I have a separate subwoofer setup in the speaker menu, thanks brother

You do, it is in page 48.

You set your speakers you want full range to full band, and the sub to double bass.

Now the F3 of your ARX 5 speakers is 45 Hz, the 6 db point is 37 Hz.

Now your speakers will roll off 24 db per octave. The crossover slope of your receiver low pass is 24 db per octave. So you will get the best setting your receiver crossover point on you sub to 50 Hz.

That would be the best starting point. Do the rest by listening, the sweet range will be somewhere in the 50 to 60 Hz range for the crossover point.

Those are not very expensive speakers, and you need to make sure the bass drivers are capable of handling full range material in the HT environment. That requires a robust motor and suspension system. Remember the drivers will decouple below about 50 Hz from the box. There will be no restoring force, like in a sealed enclosure, or a TL, the latter loading does not suddenly decouple from the pipe if designed correctly and will maintain useful output, for close to an octave below the 3db point, as long as the drivers have a low enough Fs. Ported Qb4 boxes decouple abruptly.

 

[ahblaza]

Thanks Mark as usual, very much appreciated. I want to also thank you for the advice with my tonarm, leaving the internal wiring alone and not replacing it. I had one more question about that if you don't mind, you know my Jelco SA-ST250 arm terminates with a 5 pin DIN socket, I'm using this tonearm cable and was wondering if I could do better or if this is OK, I don't believe in over priced cables.
Silver Series C4 Tonearm Cardas female/Delrin- Neutrik rca - $95.00 : Ultimate Cables - Silver Audio Cables, Bringing your music closer!
Again thank you my friend.
Jeff

 

[ahblaza]

Hey Kurt, this is what Tom at PSA responded with: here is the graph of the rolloff
http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0153/1797/files/XS30_FR.jpg?42

He informed me that my XS30s have (approximately) a 10dB octave rolloff starting around 28-30Hz: This will give much more control over the frquency response because of the advanced DSP engine integrated into the subwoofer amplifiers. So, what do you think. I'm going to try some two channel listening this evening with both subs dialed in according to Mark's (TLS) suggestions. Thanks again my friend.
Cheers Jeff

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks Mark as usual, very much appreciated. I want to also thank you for the advice with my tonarm, leaving the internal wiring alone and not replacing it. I had one more question about that if you don't mind, you know my Jelco SA-ST250 arm terminates with a 5 pin DIN socket, I'm using this tonearm cable and was wondering if I could do better or if this is OK, I don't believe in over priced cables.
Silver Series C4 Tonearm Cardas female/Delrin- Neutrik rca - $95.00 : Ultimate Cables - Silver Audio Cables, Bringing your music closer!
Again thank you my friend.
Jeff

That is a question that is impossible to answer from the information given.

The important issue with phonograph cables is adequate shielding to prevent and minimize hum.

The other issue is capacitance. This latter is where is gets tricky as there are no standards.

For every cartridge there is an optimal termination capacitance. Do you know what yours specifies? The termination capacitance is the sum of the cable capacitance and the capacitance of the phono input stage, since the capacitance of the two are in parallel.

I use largely SME arms into Quad pre amps. SME use low capacitance cables. In this way an appropriate capacitor can be added across the load in the phono plug, to get the termination impedance correct. If you know the cartridge specs and input impedance of the phono preamp stage it is simple math.

The one Quad 44 I have has dip switches to optimize the input capacitance. That is a very nice touch.

So your problem is not enough info. In summary the input capacitance of the phono stage added to the capacitance of the cables adding up to the specified load impedance of the cartridge gives optimal results.

 

[ahblaza]

Mark, speaking of the drivers in the ARX A5, here is a summary of the slit-gap woofer technolgy, if you care to indulge in it. I do realize the A5 is an inexpensive speaker, but the price surely does not denote the quality of the drivers in my opinion.
About Arx Technology.