Front Projection: 480p vs. 780p

[WorldLeader]

OK, I know that HD content is better and crisper and the whole hype. I know. The thing is, my family owns primarily DVDs and VHS, and we watch SD cable. Almost nothing that we watch is HD, or could be HD.

This leads me to my question: What type of Front Projector should we get? I don't know if the extra $1000 to step up from the Optoma H31 to the HD72 is worth it in our situation. I do know that this will be used for normal TV viewing as well as for movies. Approx. 90-100" screen with a seating distance at 12-15 feet. I will ceiling mount, with a 8' 7" ceiling.

The HD resolution will lead to a visible decrease in pixilation, right? Even in SD content?

I want a DLP chip in it too, LCDs wouldn't work for my setup.




What should I do?

EDIT: I also want to "Wow" effect that a 100" screen gives you. We currently have a 23" CRT, which looks Ok but not great. The room has some ambient light, so the brighter the PJ, the better.

 

[Hi Ho]

Standard definition content will look better on a standard definition display. With a higher resolution display, such as 720p, the SD signal will have to be scaled to match the display's resolution. This results in a fuzzy picture with possible scaling artifacts. It is possible to scale really well but you'd spend $2,000 + on a scaler.

If you really don't think you will be watching HD content any time soon then I would go with the 480p display. SD content will undoubtedly look better and HD will still look great.

How much ambient light do you have? It doesn't take much to wash out the picture.

 

[WorldLeader]

Ambient light can be solved pretty well with curtains, but there will be some indirect (not hitting the screen) light. I want to watch this during the day for some things, and light will be more of an issue. At night when I am likely to be watching movies the light is almost completely gone.

 

[BMXTRIX]

I find that this is typically not the case. Scalers have improved within projectors immensely in recent years and upconverting DVD players, designed specifically for the job of accurate scaling take it even further.

720p projectors have almost twice the number of pixels as 480p projectors. This 100% increase in resolution has a far greater impact on your being able to sit closer to the display and to enjoy a more theater like presentation. Even if HD televsion doesn't seem likely in your immediate future, the push towards HD television is here and HD disc players are available, and likely to be an upcoming purchase for many people in the next 2-3 years. If your plans are for this projector to last 5-7 years (at least) then you should get an HD display.

While there are HD projectors that cost over $1,000 or even more than the H31, there are also several excellent projectors that just cost a few hundred dollars more. This includes most notably the Panasonic AE900U and the Sanyo PLV-Z4. Both of those projectors are excellent values for the money with an incredible range of setup options that help to optomize you final setup to perfection.

DLP vs. LCD? If you think LCD won't work, then I am sure you have done far more reseearch then most and have a good reason for making that statement... right? Most people are very poorly informed on LCD vs. DLP for projection and have many facts wrong. So - why wouldn't LCD work?

 

[Hi Ho]

I, admitedly, don't have a lot of experience with projectors but I have seen many HDTV's of all sizes and technologies and SD signals have never impressed me at all. They always look significantly worse than they do on an SD TV.

 

[BMXTRIX]

I, admitedly, don't have a lot of experience with projectors but I have seen many HDTV's of all sizes and technologies and SD signals have never impressed me at all. They always look significantly worse than they do on an SD TV.

This is really television dependant. I have yet to see a big old traditional tube television that looks horrible. I've seen so-so ones, but never really bad ones. (unless they were broken) Now, when you get to the bigger sizes, like 50"+ you start seeing visible pixel structure if you aren't seated far enough back and the source is of lower quality.

The higher resolution home theater projectors will almost all handle SD signals fairly well (the Z4 is not one of the best for this!) and upconverting DVD players will take it a step further if you get a DECENT unit (not the cheap Samsung).

VHS will look like crap. Complete and total garbage. It is absolutely the worst possible signal, pretty much, that you can send to a projector and it is an insult to your projector to send it such a horrendous signal!

Fortunately, projectors don't talk smack, so you can send it whatever the heck you want. But, be aware of the limitations.

 

[majorloser]

Both my older Yamaha DPX-1 and my new Optoma H78-DC3 do a fine job upconverting SD to their native resolutions. Both projected on a 100' screen

I think the biggest let down people get is that the picture isn't perfect. An upconverted signal is not enhanced, just split up into more of the same pixels. It can't add what wasn't there, namely clarity. It's just like blowing up a photo image, the larger you go the easier it is to see the pixels.

You should be fine with either a LCD or the DLP. Both have plusses and minuses. LCD's can have a screendoor effect while DLP's can have a rainbow effect. (I have never experienced either so I wouldn't know what to look for)

EDIT: there is somebody else on this forum that watches nothing but 480P full screen, brian32672. If you also have a large collection of fullscreen DVD's and this will be your primary method of watching SD television and movies, then buy a 4:3 projector and a 480P (600+) projector.

 

[WorldLeader]

I find that this is typically not the case. Scalers have improved within projectors immensely in recent years and upconverting DVD players, designed specifically for the job of accurate scaling take it even further.

If I get the HK AVR 635 that does upconversion on composite and S-Vid to Component, would that be a better scaler than the projector's? Also if I went the HD route I would get an Oppo DVD player.

720p projectors have almost twice the number of pixels as 480p projectors. This 100% increase in resolution has a far greater impact on your being able to sit closer to the display and to enjoy a more theater like presentation. Even if HD televsion doesn't seem likely in your immediate future, the push towards HD television is here and HD disc players are available, and likely to be an upcoming purchase for many people in the next 2-3 years. If your plans are for this projector to last 5-7 years (at least) then you should get an HD display.

Well, my plans are for this to last a long time, so maybe I should be leaning towards the HD. The viewing distance will also be pretty close.

While there are HD projectors that cost over $1,000 or even more than the H31, there are also several excellent projectors that just cost a few hundred dollars more. This includes most notably the Panasonic AE900U and the Sanyo PLV-Z4. Both of those projectors are excellent values for the money with an incredible range of setup options that help to optomize you final setup to perfection.

I've done lots of research and both the Panny and the Sanyo aren't bright enough. The Panny is nice since it has that pixel smoother so no SDE, but not the case with the Sanyo. I am looking very closely at the Optoma HD72, which looks much better suited.

DLP vs. LCD? If you think LCD won't work, then I am sure you have done far more reseearch then most and have a good reason for making that statement... right? Most people are very poorly informed on LCD vs. DLP for projection and have many facts wrong. So - why wouldn't LCD work?

LCDs display too much SDE for my viewing distances, and in the lower-end region the DLP chips are a better value. I also know a guy who is on the DLP development team (at TI) and he's done lots of extensive research in the topic.

 

[WorldLeader]

So what I gather is that for a long-term investment you want to spend the money now and get a HD projector? I'm going to be leaving the house in three years (off to college) and I'm sure my parents and younger siblings won't want to upgrade anything that I haven't set up.

I will be permanently ceiling mounting this PJ and run all wires through walls, so the only thing that they would have to replace is the lamp. Everything else will be pretty self-sufficent.

 

[majorloser]

I wouldn't spend a huge amount of money on a projector now. The 1080P unit prices will start dropping in the next year or so to an affordable level. If you plan on moving and leaving things, buy an inexpensive projector for now and leave it for the family. Later on you can decide what unit to buy. Consider this the experimental unit.

BTW- lightbulbs ain't cheap. If you get one to two years with regular use if your lucky and they run about $400 each.

 

[billnchristy]

That is my plan too. I am going to buy an H31 this month while it has a $100 rebate (only 699 after!) and watch it for the next two years when I can get a 1080p for a decent price and hopefully the format war will be over by then and we can all be happy!

Just seems silly to plop 2k on a 720p and in 2 years plop another 3.5k for the next big thing.

From what I have seen, the H31 puts out a pretty good image that shouldnt disappoint.

Though I wouldnt watch a 100" screen from too close anyways...makes me ill feeling.

 

[BMXTRIX]

Other than using the projector in ambient light, I can promise you that the AE900 has more than enough light output to properly fill a 100" diagonal screen with a bright punchy image that will be easily viewable at 10 feet.

The Z4 is less bright, but fine on 100" screens in theater dark situations.

No projector for home theater is really designed for ambient light usage.

ALL THAT SAID:
If I was NOT planning to upgrade in 2-3 years and wanted a projector that would last me 5-7 years, then I would get a 720p DLP model, like the HD72. There are several 720p models right around $2K that are excellent and ran $10,000+ just a few years ago. DLP projectors hitting sub $5,000 will take at least a few years I imagine. But, they will be there - eventually. But, do you want to miss out?

As for the receiver...

You will want to separately review whatever receiver you are looking to purchase. The Yamaha RX-V2600 doesn't just convert from composite and s-video to component. That process is called TRANSCODING. The RX-V2600 converts from 480i video on any input to 720p or 1080i video. That is true upconversion - called scaling or image processing. I am not sure the HK model you referenced does scaling, it only seems like it does transcoding.

Keep in mind - if you go to HD, you aren't doing it by getting an Oppo DVD player. DVDs are 480i standard def material. They look REALLY good, but they aren't HD. If you go HD it'll be with HD cable, satellite, and/or a HD disc player like HD-DVD or Blu-ray Disc. The HD technologies are just beginning right now, but may grow rapidly in just a couple of years.

As always, the choice is yours, but given the cost difference between the H31 ($700), and the AE900 ($1,400) and the complete versatility in placement along with a 100% jump in resolution, I would take the AE900 in a second. Even if I was planning to upgrade in just a couple of years.

TI telling you that DLP is better is similar to Ford telling you that the Mustang is better. It ain't worth crap. Reviews of the AE900 and LCD projectors put them all at a very high level that is highly comparible to DLP.