Frequency Reponse

[MBauer]

I thought I would put this out for some discussion and see what people think.

I know we are all very interested in the capabilities of our equipment and its performance. I wanted to ask about some key equipment and get some reactions.

My ears no longer have the same frequency repose as they once did. It started in my youth (maybe some of you are thinking OK played the old stereo a bit too loud or too many rock concerts). Actually, I was a crew chief on a helicopter in Vietnam and in that position my head and mostly my left ear – based on my seating position, was very close to a turbine engine spinning at some extreme RPM's. On top of that, directly behind me was a transmission which connected to the turbine and spun rotor blades overhead. Add the normal. Small arms fire, explosions, rushing wind, etc and it was not a good environment for ears. To this day, my upper frequency range in one ear is shot above 10khz and in my right ear, it is Ok to about 16khz.

So, even though I have pretty decent equipment, I can't hear the upper ranges. I was wondering if anyone else has had their hearing attenuated by misadventures such as mine or age or what have you. Plus have you ever had these thoughts

There are times I think I am being pretty silly to spend all this money on something that to me, doesn’t exist, the upper frequencies.

 

[jaxvon]

Everyone's hearing does that as you age. Even if you hadn't had the chopper experience, you'd still probably be limited to abou 16kHz. Young people (like me) can probably still hear to 20kHz (barely), but it's just a natural thing.

As for the usefulness of ultrasonic frequencies, you can still respond to them. Some people that work around ultrasonic welders claim that the audible spectrum of their hearing is attenuated when the welder is actived, thus being due to the very loud ultrasonic freqencies being emitted.

I'd say don't sweat it much. However, linear to 20kHz isn't a big of a concern to you now. You can use Magnepan MMGs without regret! (+/- 3dB to 16kHz)

 

[slopoke]

The first I knew about this stuff was in college studying EE. The instructor gave us a speaker and an osciliscope and had us graph sine waves. He told us we could hear up to 20Khz. Well I could only hear up to about 15Khz then. Made me regret all the nights during HS when I played in a rock band and came home with my ears ringing.

 

[WmAx]

When I was 18, I could hear up to about 22-23kHz, when sweeping up with an oscillator driving a tweeter. Today(11 years later), despite using hearing protection most times when using any sort of power tool or even vacumming, my hearing dies out at about 18-18.5kHz. :-(

-Chris

 

[fyrmedic01@hotm]

my upper range is shot, used to play the drums, no hearing protection, my current line of work is very noisy, siren ect..but I can still tell a nice speaker with good sound stage I just miss out on some of those hi's and have an excuse for not hearing my wife

 

[Dumar]

I’m glad someone brought this up, its been on my mind for some time now.

Playing in a band and hanging on to skill saws killed my hearing years ago, but it’s the tinnitus that really bugs me. I have to get the volume up pretty good just to overcome the incessant ringing in my ears. I know I’m going to have to be fitted for hearing aids eventually, it’s getting harder to understand what people are saying.

I invest in better sound equipment because cheap gear makes my ears hurt. I can tell right away when I’m listening to a quality system and particularly, to a quality recording (there seems to me to be a huge difference in the quality of recorded music).

I’ve been toying with the idea of buying a nice equalizer and tuning my room and system to compensate for the frequencies I’m losing. Anyone out there tried this?

 

[krzywica]

Dang how old are you guys? I hear (no pun intended) the guy about the helo, I am still young 23, but am a c-130 crew chief in the Air Force and am sure my hearing has diminished a lot already. Between the aircraft and my "young punk" listening levels with my home and car stereos, I am afraid it will catch up with me sooner than later.

 

[fyrmedic01@hotm]

PROTECT YOUR HEARING!!!! I am 38 and have lost most of my upper freq, some may be genetic although there is no hist in my family....I atribute allot to my above post...lots of years playing music with no hearing protection, and my job...."Dumar" I was told by a city doctor that the upper levels are lost. I actually did not hear the sound of a digital watch alarm in the movie ladder 49 and the volume was up pretty good.....I find that overly bright speakers are painfull to listen to...."im ok just answer the phone"(ring)

 

[Shadow_Ferret]

In the Navy I spent 3 years at a transmitter site. The transmitter building was LOUD with the hum of those large HF transmitters going constantly. None of us wore ear protection. I'm sure my upper range is gone, too.

But really now, how much music goes up to 20khz anyway? Does anyone know? I can still hear the upper registers of a guitar and piano. I can still hear the crash of cymbals. What more do I really need to hear?

 

[MBauer]

Age etc

Dang how old are you guys? I hear (no pun intended) the guy about the helo, I am still young 23, but am a c-130 crew chief in the Air Force and am sure my hearing has diminished a lot already. Between the aircraft and my "young punk" listening levels with my home and car stereos, I am afraid it will catch up with me sooner than later.

Me, I am 57, about the right age for a guy who served in Vietnam. If you are a CE on a 130, you are probably at risk, unless you are pretty religious about hearing protection, and I hope you are. Even hearing protection won't help in all cases as a lot of the noise you are exposed to is sub and ultrasonic.

My main reason for posting this topic was not to lament my heaing loss, but to comment on the fact that as we spec our gear, sometimes the spec's are meaningless. There is a difference in how quality gear sounds, but I don't delude myself as to the upper registers.

The real kick in the rear (and it isn't just about stereo gear) is often the fact that the ability to enjoy these things is completely out of sync with your ability to afford them (not buy, afford)

 

[Francious70]

I'm 19 and do suffer some hearing loss already. I attribute this mainly to the years of mowing the lawn with a CD player cranked to the max to hear the music over the mower.

I also had a firecracker blow up 3" next to my right ear.

I listen at sound leves in the area of 120dB+ in my car.

I am a guitarist, and like to crank it.

I was in the HS band for 7 years and always got sat in front of a row of 9+ trumpets. Ouch.

Paul

 

[djoxygen]

A few thoughts on hearing loss...

Apparently I was born with an ear infection and had to have drainage tubes at a very young age. When I was still in the single digits, fluid built up again to the point that I apparently learned (on-the-fly) to read lips well enough that it took my parents months to figure out that I had gone mostly deaf and the pipes needed cleaning out again.

Since my hearing had already been a major issue, when I was in my late teens and decided that I wanted to do something musical for a living (and at that point hadn't been to too many loud concerts) I knew what was at stake, and I started wearing earplugs any time I was in a club, at a concert, or playing in a band.

Now that I'm 35 and have been DJ-ing in clubs, working in recording studios, going to concerts, hanging out in clubs, etc... for the bulk of the last 20 years, I am so thankful that I got wise early. I know that age, the few times I've forgotten the 'plugs, the rest of the environment, my tendency toward ear infections, etc... have knocked a little off my top-end, but I'm sure I'm better off than many. As when I was young, I am still driven crazy by clocks and watches in the room with me, so I'm holding out OK.

My DJ partner, about 8 months older than me, is deaf as a post. When I take the headphones from him, it's loud *through *my *earplugs. I love feeling the thump when I'm on the dance floor as much as anyone else does, but I know the pressure wave that feels good on the chest doesn't feel so great to the little hairs in my cochlea.

I know that almost none of the kids we DJ for are wearing protection (no condom jokes, please), and judging by some of the trunk rattling I hear on the streets I fear that the next generation will be deaf. I see kids at concerts, clubs, and raves with their head practically inside the bass bins. It's no wonder that a 128kbps mp3 is just as good as a CD for most of them.

OSHA dictates maximum SPL level exposure for the workplace. Given that clubs and concerts are workplaces for the bartenders, security, soundpeople, etc... I imagine hearing protection must be provided for those on the clock. It is surprising to me that there are no limits on what the patrons are exposed to.

I guess if one chooses to deafen ones self, it's not the goverment's business to interfere. In another 10 - 20 years, a lot of people are going to wish it was, though.

 

[fyrmedic01@hotm]

So it's clear that a good many people have suffered hearing loss...How many of you have thought about that when buying audio gear..Does the allure of purchasing those big buck speakers still call....Is it really worth it if you can't hear the upper ranges? or does denial,ego, or marketing still make the decision! after a little retrospect myself, I think I will audition the next set of speakers with that in mind!!

 

[Shadow_Ferret]

As I asked in my previous post, how much music actually goes up to 20khz? I own several guitars, electric and acoustic and I can hear the notes in the highest register. I can hear a piano's highest note. So what am i actually missing out on if say I don't quite make it to 20khz?

Besides, a superior speaker is a superior speaker. Even if I can't hear the highest dog notes that doesn't mean I can no longer differentiate between a high quality speaker in the rest of the frequency spectrum. I know what an acoustic guitar should sound like and I can tell if a speaker can reproduce that accurately.

Losing high frequency does not equate to being deaf.

 

[WmAx]

As I asked in my previous post, how much music actually goes up to 20khz? I own several guitars, electric and acoustic and I can hear the notes in the highest register. I can hear a piano's highest note. So what am i actually missing out on if say I don't quite make it to 20khz?

Good point. The most sensative/critical band is the midrange band for any human, regardless of HF hearing ability. Humans are most sensative to phase distortions, resonances, harmonic distortions and frequency response deviations within the midrange.

-Chris

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

IMO, the most important range for a speaker is between 1000-4000hz. Cymbals crashing hit at around 2000hz. A lot of guys here brag about subs going down to 16hz. What they don't realize is you need about 40 feet to get the full effect of 16 cycles per second. Any good sub that plays down to 25hz at -3db is more than adequate for our listening rooms.

 

[WmAx]

IMO, the most important range for a speaker is between 1000-4000hz.

You might have been guessing, but you are basicly correct. But a lower midrange than you specify is actually quite important, especially concerning resonance detection tresholds for the human ear. You need to raise that 4000Hz range to about 10kHz, concerning the resonances. 4000kHz, so far as importance, approximately dictates a sort of rough turning point where it starts to become rather difficult to detect phase distortion -- with increasing frequency the difficulty of detection raises.

What they don't realize is you need about 40 feet to get the full effect of 16 cycles per second. Any good sub that plays down to 25hz at -3db is more than adequate for our listening rooms.

You can get the 'full effect' of 16Hz in a 10'x10' room, if you want. The room size dimensions(along with speaker position) dictate the resonant modes and cancellations.

-Chris

 

[Francious70]

As I asked in my previous post, how much music actually goes up to 20khz? I own several guitars, electric and acoustic and I can hear the notes in the highest register. I can hear a piano's highest note. So what am i actually missing out on if say I don't quite make it to 20khz?

Just about as much as if you couldn't hear quite down to 20Hz. Not to much goes on in the frequency range extremes, but there is a little information. Usually above 16kHz (cymbals) are harmonics. Say you strike the higest fret on your guitar (21st - 24th usually), you will hear that note and a series of other notes called harmonics, some higher than the tonic, some lower. It is these combination of harmonics that sums to the note that we actually hear. If you loose the ability to hear the upper extremes, the not may sound flat to your ears. Not a major problem, but still annoying for some.

Paul

 

[djoxygen]

As I asked in my previous post, how much music actually goes up to 20khz? I own several guitars, electric and acoustic and I can hear the notes in the highest register. I can hear a piano's highest note. So what am i actually missing out on if say I don't quite make it to 20khz?

As someone else already pointed out, the harmonics. You will certainly hear the same top key of a piano, but it will sound differently to you than it will to a 10-year old girl. Also, when we lose hearing as we age or are exposed to a lot of loud noise, it's not like a brickwall filter that gradually creeps its way down from 20K. If you want to get an idea of what you might be missing, crank up the 16K band on a 1/3-octave graphic EQ.

Besides, a superior speaker is a superior speaker. Even if I can't hear the highest dog notes that doesn't mean I can no longer differentiate between a high quality speaker in the rest of the frequency spectrum. I know what an acoustic guitar should sound like and I can tell if a speaker can reproduce that accurately.

Agreed! In reference to the original question in this thread, I may not be able to differentiate between a speaker that is +/- .5 dB up to 20K and one that is -3 dB at 16K and otherwise +/- .5 dB. But even without straying into the snake-oil world of air, chocolate, and such, there are many ways to judge a speaker quantitatively and qualitatively, even if one's high-frequency hearing isn't what it once was.

 

[WmAx]

If you want to get an idea of what you might be missing, crank up the 16K band on a 1/3-octave graphic EQ.

Unfortuantely, such an E.Q. will usually also have a large effect at much lower frequencies, despite the band specification on the front panel. If anyone here wants some comparison samples with precise bands cut or boosted, just let me know and I'll create and post some file samples along with reference sample versions, that accurately demonstrate the effects of a particular band manipulation.

-Chris