Formula 1 U.S. Grand Prix, Anyone else going?

[shokhead]

If i remember right,the mich drivers were not told until they lined up and then over the radio were told to do the warmup lap and then come in but i might be wrong. If i was there i would think i would want to see the race as it should have been run. I now have mich X off my list when i need new tires.

 

[Duffinator]

However, I still enjoyed myself and had a great time. the race could have been more exciting, but the best team one.

Glad to hear you still enjoyed yourself and yes, the best team did win!

Maybe next year you should head out to So Cal for the Long Beach GP. Not F1 and not quite what it used to be but it's a big party on the beach with lots of good racing and no tire problems.

 

[sploo]

...The reason the fans had no idea of what was happening was the COMPLETELY lackluster announcing.

Yes, this is a big problem with these kind of events. I was at Silverstone a few years back, and all you're aware of is that fast cars are driving round the circuit. Who's in, out, first, last? Well, watch the highlights when you get home .

Like bungee jumping, or eating a phall. It's worth doing once. But only once.

However, I still enjoyed myself and had a great time. the race could have been more exciting, but the best team one.

Well... the best team in the race anyway. But putting Minardi's and Jordan's up against the might of Maranello is, as mate of mine once commented, like bringing a f*rt to a sh*t fight.

 

[sploo]

If i remember right,the mich drivers were not told until they lined up and then over the radio were told to do the warmup lap and then come in but i might be wrong. If i was there i would think i would want to see the race as it should have been run. I now have mich X off my list when i need new tires.

From watching the proceedings on tv here in the UK I get the impression this was all decided before they even went out. Obviously, the drivers were being very guarded when interviewed on the grid walkabout, but one or two did admit they'd basically been told not to discuss anything.

The channel covering the races over here frequently has access to team radios*, and, while they were doing the parade lap, at least one driver was asking if there was any chance the team would allow him to race.

Still, that's racing drivers for you, big balls, no brains

* apart from Ferrari, who usually won't let them.

 

[mfabien]

The Michelin tire Company is the creator of radial tires and changed the way tires are made for the world of tires. They are not exactly dummies.

Some of you are forgetting or are not aware that the Indianapolis Motor Speedway made one important change to the track in 2005... they made grooves in the surface between turn 12 and 13. These grooves created additional stress for tire walls never accounted for in F1 race tracks anywhere in the world in the history of F1 racing.

Firestone supplied tires to participants of the Indy 500. They build some expertise on the grooved surface of that particular corner and remember that Firestone is owned by Bridgestone, tire supplier for Ferrari, Jordan and Minardi. So, is anybody here suggesting that Bridgestone was as unprepared as Michelin to tackle surface grooves never before used on a F1 racetrack?

The FIA made an inspection of the circuit prior to the race ( as required under the rules) and I wonder how much importance did the FIA give and if they reported at all to the teams and the tire companies on the existence of these new grooves...

Whoever said the best team won is not following F1 racing this year. This was Ferrari's first win of the year.

Who was at fault Sunday? FIA has called the seven teams using Michelin Tires before the FIA Council on June 29 with specific accusations. See:
http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/1962994930__21_06_2005_wmsc_letters.pdf

I am not impressed with the FIA handling of the whole affair.

 

[shokhead]

So you are letting mich off the hook and finding any others at fault?

 

[mfabien]

So you are letting mich off the hook and finding any others at fault?

The FIA has not called Michelin to appear in front of their Council on June 19. The FIA blames the 7 teams for not accepting to reduce speed for turn 13 or not accepting to replace tires on each 10 laps with, of course, the appropriate penalties.

Blame? Ferrari for not voting with the 9 teams to make a unanimous decision to place a chicane and present a race to 150,000 spectators and 100 of millions of TV viewers and this in spite of the offer by the 7 teams not to be credited any official scoring points. You bet!

Blame? FIA for not considering the consequences of blindly applying the rules in spite of representations by 9 teams out of 10 and the organizing company (Bernie Ecclestone). You bet!

Sunday's problem was not a tire quality problem it was a tire manufacturing requirement for an application never encountered before, namely, grooves in a high speed corner of a race track. Sure, Michelin did not manufacture appropriate tires for that set of circumstances. The question is why... and what exactly did Michelin know or did not know about these new grooves? That I want to learn before blaming Michelin. One thing I do know and that is that the FIA had paid a visit to IMS in ample time before the race. What they they do with the info, if anything?

 

[sploo]

Some more info:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/4119526.stm

Stoddart is well known for milking publicity with 'contentious' issues, but, from following what the team bosses were saying over the race weekend, I'd be fairly certain there's quite a bit of truth in the above article.

Oh, and this will only annoy Bernie and Max further (probably more chance of the breakaway happening):

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/4118472.stm

 

[shokhead]

The Michelin tire Company is the creator of radial tires and changed the way tires are made for the world of tires. They are not exactly dummies.

Some of you are forgetting or are not aware that the Indianapolis Motor Speedway made one important change to the track in 2005... they made grooves in the surface between turn 12 and 13. These grooves created additional stress for tire walls never accounted for in F1 race tracks anywhere in the world in the history of F1 racing.

Firestone supplied tires to participants of the Indy 500. They build some expertise on the grooved surface of that particular corner and remember that Firestone is owned by Bridgestone, tire supplier for Ferrari, Jordan and Minardi. So, is anybody here suggesting that Bridgestone was as unprepared as Michelin to tackle surface grooves never before used on a F1 racetrack?

The FIA made an inspection of the circuit prior to the race ( as required under the rules) and I wonder how much importance did the FIA give and if they reported at all to the teams and the tire companies on the existence of these new grooves...

Whoever said the best team won is not following F1 racing this year. This was Ferrari's first win of the year.

Who was at fault Sunday? FIA has called the seven teams using Michelin Tires before the FIA Council on June 29 with specific accusations. See:
http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/1962994930__21_06_2005_wmsc_letters.pdf

I am not impressed with the FIA handling of the whole affair.

So these groves{the track was resurfaced in 04} were a secert to mich?

 

[mfabien]

So these groves{the track was resurfaced in 04} were a secert to mich?

What month in 04 ?

 

[shokhead]

Aug. i think.

 

[mfabien]

Not exactly...

This from Radio-Canada, the TV Network in Montreal:

"21 juin 2005 - Tony George, propriétaire du circuit d'Indianapolis, savait depuis le mois d'avril que le circuit pouvait causer des problèmes aux pneus.

Lors des premiers essais des voitures de la série IRL, le mardi 5 avril, sur la nouvelle surface de l'ovale, les pneus Firestone (de la filiale américaine du géant japonais Bridgestone) n'ont pas tenu le coup. Les essais, qui devaient durer deux jours, ont été annulés après quelques heures.

Les ingénieurs de Firestone avaient été déconcertés par « quelque chose de surprenant et de jamais vu avant », selon le président de l'IRL, Brian Barnhart."

TRANSLATION

Tony George, owner of the Indianapolis race track, knew since April that the track could be the cause of problems for tires.

When the first road tests for IRL cars took place, Tuesday April 5 (2005), on the new surface of the Oval track, Firestone tires could not deal with it. Tests scheduled for 2 days had to be cancelled after a few hours.

Firestone engineers were flabbergasted by "something quite surprising and never seen before", this from IRL President Brian Barnhart.

And there is more for those who can read French at:
http://www.radio-canada.ca/sports/

...and click the «Formule 1» icon on the menu bar, then "États-Unis" with the Tom George picture.

 

[shokhead]

Aug.16 removing old asphalt begins. Should be finished in Nov. of 04. Thats 7 months ago.
Some BS teams used more durable tires instead of better handling tires.
Mich ONLY brought high grip tires with no backups.
Mich had a total lack of preperation.
FS stopped testing when they saw they needed a more durable tire. They got a more durable tire to adapt tho the race surface.
Tires have to adapt to the race track,not the other way around.
I dont read French. I dont need to.
It seems BS worked it out by raceday,what happened to Mich?
They just blew this one.

 

[Audioholics]

It's a theory I'd be quite happy to test, but only with a full US Football team, a full Rugby team, and a very safe distance between me and the 'action'.

I would pay BIG BUCKS to see that.

The question is, would you suit up the rugby guys, or de-suit the American football players... haha.

 

[mulester7]

From watching the proceedings on tv here in the UK I get the impression this was all decided before they even went out. Obviously, the drivers were being very guarded when interviewed on the grid walkabout, but one or two did admit they'd basically been told not to discuss anything.

The channel covering the races over here frequently has access to team radios*, and, while they were doing the parade lap, at least one driver was asking if there was any chance the team would allow him to race.

Still, that's racing drivers for you, big balls, no brains

* apart from Ferrari, who usually won't let them.

.....Sploo, I have heard to ATTEND a NASCAR event is where it's at....I would agree with that as watching NASCAR on TV bores me....MY favorite to attend is the 1/4 strip events.....

.....once a year, I try to attend the drags at Motorsports Park in Memphis....I doubt the event is ever televised, but it IS the big-time and part of the circuit....

.....to stand around the finish line and actually SEE shockwaves come off the funny cars as they accelerate down the track toward me is both amazing and humbling.....

.....there's nothing like the rails, though....from a docile idle waiting for the green light, to an EXPLOSION of EVERY SPL in the WORLD instantly hitting me is my experience....when you are there live concerning rails, and sitting about 50 yards down the track fairly close, it's like you go into shock a little bit when he goes by you, with your insides being suppressed when he's even with you, and then sucked out of you as he moves past from the 5000-6000 horsepower....wow....WELL over 300 mph at the finish....

.....Sploo, you referenced balls concerning NASCAR drivers....I watched a guy get into his railjob one day in the pits at Memphis....he was strapped in by the crew....the crew then used an overhead crank-lift to set his balls in....

.....can I get some agreement?.....would I lie?....don't answer that last one.....

 

[sploo]

And there is more for those who can read French at:
http://www.radio-canada.ca/sports/

A little Italian and Japanese, but no French. For those of us who are similarly 'linguistically challenged', use: http://babelfish.altavista.com/

The question is, would you suit up the rugby guys, or de-suit the American football players... haha.

Well, de-suit the septic tanks obviously. How are you supposed to rake someone's face with your studs if he's wearing a lid (believe me, this is normal practice in a rugby match)

.....Sploo, I have heard to ATTEND a NASCAR event is where it's at....I would agree with that as watching NASCAR on TV bores me....MY favorite to attend is the 1/4 strip events.....

Yea, oval racing leaves me a bit cold too. I've never been to a drag racing event, but seen a few on TV. There is strip over here (http://www.santapod.co.uk/) and I keep meaning to go. Just never made the time...

.....Sploo, you referenced balls concerning NASCAR drivers

I referenced the kahunas of all racing drivers. I think they're all mad, but don't we all wish we could drive like 'em?

 

[annunaki]

The FIA has not called Michelin to appear in front of their Council on June 19. The FIA blames the 7 teams for not accepting to reduce speed for turn 13 or not accepting to replace tires on each 10 laps with, of course, the appropriate penalties.

Blame? Ferrari for not voting with the 9 teams to make a unanimous decision to place a chicane and present a race to 150,000 spectators and 100 of millions of TV viewers and this in spite of the offer by the 7 teams not to be credited any official scoring points. You bet!

Blame? FIA for not considering the consequences of blindly applying the rules in spite of representations by 9 teams out of 10 and the organizing company (Bernie Ecclestone). You bet!

Sunday's problem was not a tire quality problem it was a tire manufacturing requirement for an application never encountered before, namely, grooves in a high speed corner of a race track. Sure, Michelin did not manufacture appropriate tires for that set of circumstances. The question is why... and what exactly did Michelin know or did not know about these new grooves? That I want to learn before blaming Michelin. One thing I do know and that is that the FIA had paid a visit to IMS in ample time before the race. What they they do with the info, if anything?

I do not agree. Michelin knows the rules plain and simple. They are supposed to bring a "safety tire" basically one that allows them to race at any circuit. They did not.

The part about Ferrari is FALSE FALSE FALSE. See Here:

'He denied that Ferrari had anything to do with the decision to refuse the chicane. ''They were never consulted,'' said Max. Explaining why the chicane was out of the question, Mosley likened it to making everyone in a 100m sprint run barefoot 'because some had forgotten their shoes.'

Entire article: http://www.f1racing.net/en/news.php?newsID=90542

Supposedly only a few teams were actually encountering problems with tires. Namely the cars that have shown to be harder on rear tires in the past. (Toyota, Renault)

Michelin's construction technique could be partly at fault as well. They use a very thin compound over the carcass. At the joint between the sidewall and the contact patch, it (the compound) was thin and weak going around a banked corner. At least that is what I have been able to gather. Thus putting the blame on Michelin.

 

[annunaki]

Some more info:

Toyota are the only team to have come out of the US GP fiasco well.

They knew the tyre situation was terminal and knew they couldn’t race.

They qualified with three laps worth of fuel in the tank and grabbed the only good publicity going by putting Jarno Trulli on pole.

Kimi Raikkonen actually did the outstanding job of qualifying, being second on the grid with a heavy fuel load, but Toyota nicked all the headlines.

How did they know the tyres were terminal?

Because they now employ Pascal Vasselon, ex-Michelin F1 project manager, who was let go by the French tyre manufacturer at the end of last season, and who is probably now a very relieved man.

He would have told his new team through his contacts that the tyres in question had been made with an inferior batch of materials.

The failures were different from any Michelin had ever seen before. The tyre tread was, in fact, dis-bonding from the casing. It un-bonded. The problem only happened on the heavily-loaded outside left rear tyre and only on the banked section of Turn 13.

But Pascal would also have let his new employers know that this problem would not be related just to the camber and suspension settings of the Toyota, nor would it be simply down to the team running low tyre pressures.

It would happen to everyone. So with that knowledge, they sent Trulli out to grab the pole.

By the way, many at Toyota were bricking it when the idea of installing a chicane took shape on Saturday night. If everyone had raced with a chicane, Jarno would have had to pit on lap two!


From:http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=General&PO_ID=33232

 

[mfabien]

annanuki,

How then do you explain that on April 5, IRL cars with Firestone tires couldn't cope with the grooves and had to stop testing after 2 hours of a scheduled 2 day test event in preparation for Indy 500?

Improperly designed tires by Firestone?

How would Bridgestone have performed at the F1 Grandprix if their subsidiary Firestone had not conducted tests and resolved the problem for the Indy race?

May I suggest that only actual testing with open wheel cars at the IMS track would have supplied Michelin with needed real life information and implication of high speed banking at turn 13. Normal advanced track visits by tire companies have to do with general pavement surfaces condition which helps determine the amount of wear to provide in the design of tire thread. Did anyone even mentioned the existence of localized grooves

Michelin did not have cars to do this testing.

Bridgestone who acquired the knowledge from Firestone did not inform anyone of the danger. Competition is more important than driver lives, it seems, and Ralph Shumacker and Robert Zonta can thank their good luck to be alive today.

 

[annunaki]

I guess it helps to be a diversified company. So now it is Bridestone's fault for supplying another racing series that happens to run at the track.

Michelin supplied all of the Formula BMW cars with slicks and none of them had ANY problems at 150 mph all weekend through turn 13.

Bridgestone probably would have been fine (even without any knowledge), as they inherently run a stiffer sidewall on their tires. That is where Michelin was having problems. The sidewalls/contact patch joints were too thin and were rippling/deforming under load causing the carcass to separate from the compound. It still does not matter. They (Michelin) were supposed to have tires available to safely run a race (any circuit), yet they did not bring any. They went for a very aggressive tire and it was not up to par. It is their fault for not bringing other tires.

Edit: Please supply information about the testing ending short on April 5th, 2005. I did not hear anything about that. Thanks.