Follow up on Primaluna HP Int amp

[RichB]

Don't forget Parasound if you are into playing with various amps.

- Rich

 

[slipperybidness]

I like the autobiasing, I also like that the tubes don't push into a printed circuit board which will become brittle over time. Other brands have those tube sockets right in the PCB.

I assumed it was all class A power. Is that not right?

That Kaluga mono looks amazing, and I'm sure it's great. At $16k/pr though, not something I'll ever afford.

Well, I still have not gotten a response to the email that I sent to the vendor. They should be able to inform us if it's class A or AB.

Look at the evidence though:
The spec sheet doesn't say anywhere that it is a true class A design. If it were class A, I would expect that they would be shouting this from the rooftops to all their audiophile crowd customers.

When you read up on their auto-bias, they compare it to a car and where a car idles. That is indeed a decent analogy of quiescient bias for an amp. They say they don't "idle theirs as hard" as other tube amps. Class A design is midpoint bias (that is midpoint between cutoff and saturation). It would make absolutely no sense to bias above midpoint as it would waste more power and lead to clipping/saturation earlier. Now, biasing below midpoint is the same as "idling lower" that they are touting as a feature. But, you are now moving down the load line closer to cutoff, and that is the definition of a class B (AB) design.

Like I said before, read between the lines of all the audiophile marketing hype and they are saying this is class AB, while trying to not actually come out and say that it is class AB. And, class AB is a tried and true design that is much more efficient than class A. So, I'm not dissing the amp or the design decisions, but I am dissing the marketing department for the spin that they are using on the advertising.

 

[walter duque]

I have owned only one pair of tube amps in all my years in this hobby. I did enjoy them with my Apogee speakers. I think they sounded great.

I am not sure if they are the same amps, mine had no covers (it's a matter of fact they still might be in my parents basement, have to check) I know the Apogees are still there, but they look like they're shoot. My amps where the same or close to that.
VTL Power Amp Vacuum Tube Logic Mono 100 Pair Consecutive Serial Numbers | eBay

 

[ematthews]

C'mon, Mr. Moderator, don't be a party pooper, get in the spirit of the discussion!

I agree to the point that the OP's ATI will provide benchmark performance, but that "better" is in the ear of the listener, and this is a hobby after all. At least he has the ATI as a baseline to compare such alternative approaches to.

FWIW, after my forays into tubes, I ended up with ATI and single ended pentodes.



Have you tried it with your RF-82s? Assuming you still have them (listed in your sig).

No haven't tried them yet.

 

[ematthews]

Anyone know here if it really does take at least 50 hours on these tubes to sound better? If they don't then there may be no need to keep this amp. I did listen to some Norah Jones today on this and it sounded fantastic. Vocals really do shine here as well as acoustic guitar and pianos. But for progressive rock or Rock it's not as good as the SS ATI/P5.

 

[slipperybidness]

Anyone know here if it really does take at least 50 hours on these tubes to sound better? If they don't then there may be no need to keep this amp. I did listen to some Norah Jones today on this and it sounded fantastic. Vocals really do shine here as well as acoustic guitar and pianos. But for progressive rock or Rock it's not as good as the SS ATI/P5.

Eh, my guess is that the results won't be night and day.

I do think that tubes break in, probably more-so than other types of electronics breaking in.

But, did you go read up on that Auto-bias circuit link that was posted? They claim that somebody ran this amp non-stop for something like 4600 hrs and then when the tubes were measured, they were at like 90% of the lifetime left!

That is a mighty big claim, sounds kind of fishy to me, and it was a completely un-controlled experiment. If this is really what happened, then they should have repeated the experiment under controlled conditions and well-documented before posting this info on their website.

But, my point is, if you believe that info on the vendor's website, then 50 hours isn't going to make 1 bit of difference in the sound quality. If you don't believe that info, then 50 hrs might give you a slight benefit.

Go back to what IMC said in a previous post "Tubes are either breaking-in or they're breaking-down". That's a bit of an exaggeration, but not by much.

My advice is: Either don't worry about it, or just turn it on and let it play continuously for 50 hours then go have a listen and then you report back what you found with your experiment. That's the real solution to your problem.

 

[ematthews]

Well I have played with this amp the last few nights. I really think it shines with certain music. When I play something more mainstream like Rock it's not so good. Sounds a bit muddy... And here is the big thing. Steven Wilson or Porcupine Tree which is progressive rock, has some of the best recordings out there. It sounds just OK on it. When I hook up the Marantz PM8004 and use it as a Preamp to the ATI 2000, the sounds and dynamics are much better. Very clear and sharp but the RBH speakers sing with it... Decisions to be made.... I want to keep it but it would be for certain music. I do want to get a turntable for it too since I am getting a huge library of LP's from my father/mother in laws.

 

[slipperybidness]

Well I have played with this amp the last few nights. I really think it shines with certain music. When I play something more mainstream like Rock it's not so good. Sounds a bit muddy... And here is the big thing. Steven Wilson or Porcupine Tree which is progressive rock, has some of the best recordings out there. It sounds just OK on it. When I hook up the Marantz PM8004 and use it as a Preamp to the ATI 2000, the sounds and dynamics are much better. Very clear and sharp but the RBH speakers sing with it... Decisions to be made.... I want to keep it but it would be for certain music. I do want to get a turntable for it too since I am getting a huge library of LP's from my father/mother in laws.

I have found that my Dynaclone ST70 sounds best with Jazz. I have also found that it sounds much better on my DT SM35s than it does on the Philharmonitors or the P363s (haven't tried it on the GE T2s yet).

I don't think any of that info is a surprise to anyone familiar with tubes and/or these speakers mentioned.

I had been using it as the amp to drive my P363s with the source being drum machines/synths (until my right channel died). For an application like that (where your source often contains intentional distortion and you aren't too concerned about the freq extremes), it was a very fine amp. I'll tear it apart and repair it eventually, but it's just not at the top of my list right now.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well I have played with this amp the last few nights. I really think it shines with certain music. When I play something more mainstream like Rock it's not so good. Sounds a bit muddy... And here is the big thing. Steven Wilson or Porcupine Tree which is progressive rock, has some of the best recordings out there. It sounds just OK on it. When I hook up the Marantz PM8004 and use it as a Preamp to the ATI 2000, the sounds and dynamics are much better. Very clear and sharp but the RBH speakers sing with it... Decisions to be made.... I want to keep it but it would be for certain music. I do want to get a turntable for it too since I am getting a huge library of LP's from my father/mother in laws.

So the ATI amp doesn't sound as good for some music compared to the Tube amp ?

I kind of figured the ATI amp would sound good with all music if the music itself is good.

 

[ematthews]

So the ATI amp doesn't sound as good for some music compared to the Tube amp ?

I kind of figured the ATI amp would sound good with all music if the music itself is good.

No. The ATI sounds good with everything. The Primaluna sounds good with certain stuff.

 

[RichB]

I can think of an amp that would matched perfectly with the Parasound P5...Parasound A21

- Rich

 

[ematthews]

I can think of an amp that would matched perfectly with the Parasound P5...Parasound A21

- Rich

I almost pulled the trigger on that one but based off the info I read and was told about the ATI 2000 sold me.. I am not a huge fan of the finned look on the sides of the Parasound. The ATI is perfect.

 

[slipperybidness]

I almost pulled the trigger on that one but based off the info I read and was told about the ATI 2000 sold me.. I am not a huge fan of the finned look on the sides of the Parasound. The ATI is perfect.

I wasn't such a fan of ATI.....until I started seeing some pics of the internals. It really is what's on the inside that counts.

 

[Cos]

both are great amps, just can't stand the handles in the front, I like the clean look.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

No. The ATI sounds good with everything. The Primaluna sounds good with certain stuff.

That tells me the only amp you need is the ATI - the amp that sounds good with everything.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

ATI & Parasound amps (as well as other amps) are great, and great amps sound good with everything that is supposed to sound good (source).

Everyone has his reasons for choosing one amp over another.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I wasn't such a fan of ATI.....until I started seeing some pics of the internals. It really is what's on the inside that counts.

When I was choosing amps, my requirement was that they had to have big metal front handles - ATI, Bryston, Vincent.

Bryston was too expensive for me. I think Vincent only had that "hybrid" tube stereo amp thing that had 150WPC. So the choice for me was simple.

 

[slipperybidness]

When I was choosing amps, my requirement was that they had to have big metal front handles - ATI, Bryston, Vincent.

Bryston was too expensive for me. I think Vincent only had that "hybrid" tube stereo amp thing that had 150WPC. So the choice for me was simple.

I couldn't pass up my Parasound 1206. Bought it used for ~$500. 6 channels and can be bridged. Very flexible amp. Also, big honking handles front AND rear. I really like the real handles because it pretty much makes it impossible to shove it back so far that you damage the connectors.

Dang, it's crowded inside though

 

[slipperybidness]

Edit: Their "contact us" link was very painless, so I sent a quick question to see if my hunch is correct.

Well, 5 days and still no response. That is not very reassuring with PrimaLuna in the slightest. If you can't respond to your "contact us" online link within 1 week (they still have a couple days), then that is poor service and they need to remove the link from their site.

 

[ematthews]

Well, 5 days and still no response. That is not very reassuring with PrimaLuna in the slightest. If you can't respond to your "contact us" online link within 1 week (they still have a couple days), then that is poor service and they need to remove the link from their site.

That is true. Parasound responds well but their repair service is not up to par. I sent my P5 Pre back to get fixed the beginning of July. I still don't have it back!!!