Floorstanding or Bookshelf with Sub

[dohanc]

I am curious whether you think it is better to get a full floorstanding speaker (that generally has slightly better bass) or better bookshelf speakers with the addition of a sub. Generally, you can get a slightly "better" or should I say, more expensive line of bookshelf speakers for the same price of floorstanding speakers. Without getting into specific brands, what are people's opinions? Let's limit this to music only. I don't think anyone would argue the necessity of a sub for HT - bookshelves or floorstanding.

I currently have B&W DM602 S3 bookshelf speakers and have auditioned a sub with the bookshelfs, but there always seem to be something missing as lower frequencies transition from the bookshelves to the subwoofer. It's a little unnatural. I see so many people mentioning get a better pair of bookshelves and just get a sub. But in my auditioning experience this might not be the best. Thoughts?

 

[mike c]

based on theory and specs, I'd still prefer a floorstander with subwoofer.

a sub takes over at 80hz and below ... but what about 4khz to 80hz? (thats the job your 602 mid/bass driver has to do btw) that's a lot of frequencies for a single driver to do.

but for example you had the 603, the mid driver will take care of 4khz to 150hz, the bass driver will take care of the 150hz to 80hz, your subwoofer will take care of the rest below 80hz

 

[sleeper]

sounds good to me...

As we all know, it's all about what sounds good to you. You've stated that you find bookshelf-type speakers with a subwoofer sounding "unnatural" to you. Maybe, for you, full range speakers are the way to go. Also, you have to take into consideration the distance away from the speakers in which you sit. Smaller, "bookshelf" speakers seem to excel when listened to like a near-field monitor. Larger speakers seem to need more space for the sound to breathe and develope before reaching the listener. Of course then there's the question of subwoofer placement and proper x-over frequency selection to help minimize sub localization, helping to make for a more natural sound. For my small to medium sized living room, I prefer bookshelves with a sub; however, in larger rooms nothing beats the sound of full range speakers. Nevermind when you get into particular brands and which ones sound better....

Just one guy's opinion...
sleeper.

 

[Yamahaluver]

Bear in mind, if the room is small, big floor-standers would have quite a few problems, primary among those, logistic and acoustics, a big speaker would overwhelm a small room and what you would hear is reflected sound rather than actual, the sound will be muddled, also very poor WAF, poor imaging as well. If you have a big large room, by all means go right ahead and splurge for a big and tall speaker, Definitve with the built in subs come to my mind, for a small room, nothing beats good quality bookshelfs matched to proper subs placed in the right area with Xrossover set correctly. Another factor is that even though today's floor stander's are very efficient, they would still require good amplification, barring TOTL receivers, you would have to shell out the extra cash for a separate power amp.

 

[HDTV4ME]

what is considered a big room?

Just wondering what is considered a big room?I had a mirage system with the 260's towers in the front.This sounded great in my upstairs livingroom,I built a bigger recroom and they sound awful,it seems like the front stage is far in front of you.I sold the mirage and got paradigm studio 20's and a cc590,the 60's will come when I have the extra cash.The 20's sound better but they still dont fill
the room.The room is 13x35 and we sit about 18feet from the front speakers.Are the studio 60's enough for this room?they will be hooked up to my denon 3805,does it have enough power for the 60's in this room?

 

[Joe Schmoe]

Every time that I have tried using a sub with bookshelves, I have found the results unsatisfactory. I just can't seem to get the transition/blending right, and it never sounds natural to me. I would love to succeed in doing this, because I think that the resulting system would be more truly full-range than almost any floorstanders. As it stands, though, I listen to my bookshelves by themselves. (FWIW I have heard the B&W 602s and was impressed with the bass. My 705s are better in that respect than one would guess from their size.)

 

[abboudc]

Most of the time, when the curtain is raised, i prefer floorstanding w/sub.

 

[billy p]

Is it not more difficult to blend floors and a sub, then with bookshelfs? I think if you are spending twice the money for BIGGER drivers and a fuller sound with floors, then your money is kinda wasted. The drivers won't be fed due the x-over setting taking over and all freq from 60-80 Hz go to the sub. Another factor most multiple driver floor speakers usully need more power as well. I'd spend more and get better monitors then the same money for floors.

 

[abboudc]

Is it not more difficult to blend floors and a sub, then with bookshelfs?

Yes, but you also have more flexibility.

I think if you are spending twice the money for BIGGER drivers and a fuller sound with floors, then your money is kinda wasted. The drivers won't be fed due the x-over setting taking over and all freq from 60-80 Hz go to the sub.

Only if you have the crossover set at 80. With a floorstander, you can set it at 60, freeing up your sub to do what it does best, low bass.

I'd spend more and get better monitors then the same money for floors.

It's all a matter of taste and tradeoffs. The big limiters with bookshelves is space and volume, floorstanders don't have those restrictions. Removing them, you may hit others (increased power, possibly more difficult to set up, etc).

 

[zumbo]

I prefer the jump to a 2 & 1/2 way floorstander for HT. Not a fullrange speaker, but one that will at least make it to 45Hz. There are superb bookshelf that will do the job, some better. If you can't swing B&W 805's, I would have to say a floorstander is needed. 603(f), or 704(f). It would be a tough call between the 705(b), and the 603(f). It would take some audition time.

Of all the models listed above, the 805's are my top pick. Even though they are bookshelf, they are some of the finest speakers you will ever hear.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

I prefer the jump to a 2 & 1/2 way floorstander for HT. Not a fullrange speaker, but one that will at least make it to 45Hz. There are superb bookshelf that will do the job, some better. If you can't swing B&W 805's, I would have to say a floorstander is needed.

The 705s have almost exactly the same bass response as the 805s, though the 805s do have a more refined sound.

 

[billy p]

Yeh

The 705s have almost exactly the same bass response as the 805s, though the 805s do have a more refined sound.

that is the main reason people like monitors over floors. They seem to have better imaging and the sound is more refined and of course, that becomes more evident as you go to the next level.

 

[zumbo]

The 705s have almost exactly the same bass response as the 805s, though the 805s do have a more refined sound.

This is another example of why specs can't tell you the SQ.

I actually demoed the 705 & 805 side-by-side for hours. IMO, there is a HUGE difference between the two. The 705's sound boxy. They sound wonderful, as long as you don't have the 805's for side-by-side comparison. I couldn't swing the cost of the 805's, but they were perfection. I stop by to listen to them from time-to-time even today. I just love-em. My dealer has them in a dedicated 2-channel room now. He runs the 805's on Mac tube gear. He runs a pair of 802's on Mac SS gear. They are the only two sets of speakers in the room. No sub used for the 805 set-up.

I did demo Monitor Audio silver and gold floorstanders at the same time, and on the same equipment. For the money, the silver floorstanders were a better value, and performed better than the 705's for the money. The MA silver were less expensive as well. The golds were superb, but again, out of my pricerange. I had decided on the MA S6's, until I found the MB Quart 830's for the same price. The rest is history.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

I agree that the 805s sound better (though IMO not $1000 better.) My point was that the difference does not include more extended or powerful bass.

 

[AVRat]

The other members make excellent points, but I think that with all the speaker configurations available these days, the bookshelf vs. floorstander debate is rather antiquated. I believe it is more about how the sub and speakers are integrated together. We have become ingrained in the parochial thought that the crossover point between speakers and sub should be 80Hz or lower. When in reality a much higher level may provide a smoother transition. Even for speakers that have decent response characteristics. If you take a look at many of the 2.5 and 3 way systems you’ll see crossover points 120Hz and higher between mid/woof. Of course running a higher x-over means the sub will be more localizable, and makes sub location more important.

 

[zumbo]

The other members make excellent points, but I think that with all the speaker configurations available these days, the bookshelf vs. floorstander debate is rather antiquated. I believe it is more about how the sub and speakers are integrated together. We have become ingrained in the parochial thought that the crossover point between speakers and sub should be 80Hz or lower. When in reality a much higher level may provide a smoother transition. Even for speakers that have decent response characteristics. If you take a look at many of the 2.5 and 3 way systems you’ll see crossover points 120Hz and higher between mid/woof. Of course running a higher x-over means the sub will be more localizable, and makes sub location more important.

This is odd. I use 60Hz as my crossover point. Much better than 80Hz, if other speakers can handle it. This is the reason I recommend a bookshelf or floorstander that will at least make it down to 45Hz. A higher crossover point than 80Hz would only be ideal if you were using cube speakers, or ones that just plain $u(k.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

This is odd. I use 60Hz as my crossover point. Much better than 80Hz, if other speakers can handle it. This is the reason I recommend a bookshelf or floorstander that will at least make it down to 45Hz. A higher crossover point than 80Hz would only be ideal if you were using cube speakers, or ones that just plain $u(k.

I have always been in favor of using the lowest possible crossover setting that will not leave a gap.

 

[billy p]

I have always been in favor of using the lowest possible crossover setting that will not leave a gap.

I had a discussion(POST) about this. If I recall the way it was explained or my interpretation is the lower the x-over the more strain that is put on the receiver(if using floors), that if a powered sub is used then allow it to do its job and set the x over between 60-80 but most feel 80 is the mark. This is even more relevant in a larger set up.
Ps: I know someone will correct me but my memory $UCK$.

 

[MDS]

I have always been in favor of using the lowest possible crossover setting that will not leave a gap.

Remember, a xover has a slope; it does not cut-off at exactly the xover frequency.

One rule of thumb is to set the xover to 1/2 to 1 octave above the F3 point of your speakers. If the speakers go down to 40 Hz, an appropriate xover would be 60 Hz or 80 Hz. If you set it at 40 Hz, then the receiver is using a lot of power to amplify the speakers and the sub has very little to do - why even bother with a sub in that case?

 

[dohanc]

I am simply interested in other people's opinions on the subject. Obviously I would prefer the floorstanding speaker, but usually can't afford anymore than the bookshelves I want : ) People are discussing X-over points and how they would be different between a bookshelf and floorstanding. I look at the need for a floorstanding speaker completely different: I prefer to keep the sub off. With a floorstanding the bass usually goes a littler lower and is usually a little fuller than a bookshelf. I don't think I like a floorstanding any better with a sub (but I should audition this combination now that I think of it) than a bookshelf. Therefore the floorstanding speakers usually perform a little better in the bass department. However, I 100% agree that imaging seems to be ruined when you go to the floorstanding speakers (at least in the B&W 600 range).

I'm attempting to keep the thread generic and not linked to any particular speakers. But I haven't really decided what is most practical for me.

How about this question: Do you generally listen to music with your sub on or off?

Keep your opinions coming!