Fed Up with FM Programming

stiletto pat · Mar 25, 2004

Okay folks,

I've been a avid rocker all my life, but having classical roots, and embraced the jazz side of things starting around the mid 80s.  However, this whole smooth jazz radio crapola is really starting to get to me.  I really enjoy great jazz, and try to catch concerts whenever feasable.  However, I'm so completely disgusted and bored with the way the smooth jazz stations program - there must be literally 100's of thousands of hours of programming they could choose from, and instead, they play the same top 50 or so cuts over and over and over, until I almost hate the songs, and probably wouldn't buy those recordings if they paid me.  Unfortunately, the rock stations and classic rock stations do the very same thing!!  

I'd really like to know if others out there feel the same way.  If so, maybe we need to launch some petitions to our some of these radio stations!!!!  Or, maybe I'm just living in the past, when you never knew what you might catch on the FM airwaves.

Color me bummed with Radio today....

Pat

frkuhn · Mar 26, 2004

Here in Brazil, besides all you have said, we also get more comercials and babbling than actual songs.

I barely listen to radio anymore, just in my car when I forget to bring a CD along. Really miss those old days (oh-oh, think I'm getting old

).

stiletto pat · Mar 26, 2004

Understood.  I guess that I have become that old AC/DC line "You bitch, you must be getting old"...

However, it's just completely frustrating that some program manager of a radio station somewhere can't wake up and smell the coffee such that they try and give the radio listening public a bit more of what they want.  I understand the need for commercials to pay the bills, but right now, when a commercial comes on, I just flip to another piece of crap station.  I'd likely be a lot more loyal to a station if they would actually play programming I would be interested to hear, rather than the same top 50 rock songs of all time, that have now been hopelessly run into the ground and ruined for me.  That is simply annoying.

Rip, old chum, how about hearing from you on this topic?  I'm certain you could provide an interesting point of view?

Rip Van Woofer · Mar 26, 2004

stiletto pat : Rip, old chum, how about hearing from you on this topic? I'm certain you could provide an interesting point of view?

Alas, all I can do is agree! Radio in the US is a wasteland. I think it's mainly aimed at people in their cars these days. Unless you have a better than average NPR or college station in your area, or live close to the Canadian border where you can pick up a CBC Radio 2 station (for classical), it's not worth having an FM tuner.

And I'm totally with you re: "smooth jazz". Gack. As a real jazz DJ on our public station (see below) once said, "I don't know what that is they're playing, but it ain't jazz". (Ed Love, weeknights.)

Here in Detroit (see "urban decay" in your dictionary) we at least have a hip public radio station, WDET, station that plays an eclectic mix with on-air people who play what they love and often surprise you. (For example: You a bluegrass fan? Listen on weekends for our own locally-produced show called The Arkansas Traveler! Same goes for blues and folk.) Check them out on the Web: www.wdet.org, I think. But our only commercial classical station went off the air a few years back after limping along & trying a sort of "classical lite" format (short works, single movements of longer works, and no vocal music, please!) as a last resort.

As someone recently said here, satellite radio has cool stuff (I've been thinking of trying it), but how long before it too gets homogenized?

Too bad about Brazil, especially with the rich musical tradition you have. How are things in Europe?

jeffsg4mac · Mar 26, 2004

Huh, you think fm sucks you should try living in New Hampshire. We have two choices, nothing and nada. I have hated FM since 1989; Rock stations play crap, jazz stations play pop, pop stations play rap. It sucks

stiletto pat · Mar 26, 2004

Brothers in Audio Arms,

I agree with all of your statements.  Here in the Tampa Bay area, we also have a members only station, which has similar "programs" for different types of music, from polka hours, bluegrass hours, funk hours, rap hours, rock hours, etc...  However, I don't want to have to wait until 12 - 3 pm on a Saturday afternoon to hear some good rock.  Is it too friggin' much to ask to just get a good rock station that plays more just 50 cuts over and over and over and over!!!

I love jazz too, but again the same problem.  I think I'm going to blast some radio station websites and see how quickly they respond by ignoring my ranting and raving....

Pat  

Rob Babcock · Mar 26, 2004

I'm lucky the MPR in my area is fantastic, all-classical-all-the-time, with minimal talk/programming.  I don't listen as much as I should, but I've been turned on to several composers I hadn't heard before.

A. Vivaldi · Mar 26, 2004

I haven't owned a tuner or radio in years, and by the looks of things I don't intend to anytime soon. Radio commercials, to say nothing of the repetition, are the most annoying, rage inducing form of advertisement on earth. Often, we get these same annoying commercials on TV, but in a much shorter and less painful version. With radio we get the extra long "deluxe" version complete with the extra bassy voices, nasally lip smacking voices, etc. Did anyone ever notice that when one station airs commercials, most of the others do at the same time? I swear it's all a consipiracy! Some foreign element is trying to drive us insane, and if you listen to the news, it's working! I made a vow that if I ever became rich someday, I'd buy or build me a decent radio station and hire someone who was cool and I'd have them play all kinds of obscure rock and cuts by popular bands that are rarely heard. Mabye I'd have a certain period of time or a certain day where I'd play some classical or something else, and if the brainless masses didn't tune in, screw 'em! I'd eat the losses just for arts sake. Hey Rip, I totally agree with you on that "smooth jazz". I don't know much about jazz, but from what little I've heard and liked, "smooth jazz" aint it. Excuse me, but isn't this what one would call department store/elevator muzak? Why are there human beings who exist that would ever even contemplate creating this "music"? There isn't enough mad symbols I can apply to describe my contempt for the state of radio in America today.

Rob Babcock · Mar 26, 2004

The extra crappy thing about radio advertising is that at the times I'm listening to the radio I'm usually a "captive audience"- usually in my car.  You can't just take that time to go take a leak or something!

You just gotta grin and bear it.

Most of the time I'm listening to a CD anyway, though.

I really should get a decent antenne for my home rig, though.  It would be nice to be able to listen to a little MPR on occasion, especially for "The Prairie Home Companion."

jeffsg4mac · Mar 27, 2004

The only time I even listen to the radio is when I am in my truck driving to work, and then I am listening to Glenn Beck, El Rushbo, Sean Hannity or Laura Ingram. But hey, that's just me, ya know I am one or those evil right wing wacko's, who want to kill all the trees, pollute the earth, kill all the whales, take away all your rights, burn all the books, give kids guns and SUV's, eat up all the animals and take away the clean air

Sarcasm intended and emphasized

stiletto pat · Mar 27, 2004

Well, like I said earlier, I understand the need for commercials to pay the bills... but at some point, radio programmers are either going to give us what we want to hear, or lose us to other mediums...  Of course, that's assuming that they give a s**t.

 It strikes me that there are so many other not so bright people out there that are willing to listen to crap, that our particular demographic just doesn't matter to them.  They probably feel that they have already lost us to CDs while we drive.  (They have...)

Anyway, I was just thinking back a couple of years ago when a new rock station came on the scene playing classic rock.  I was initially elated - because they had such a large play list and an open policy - you could actually request music, album sides, whatever.  It was positively liberating - for a while, until they quickly began to pare their play list down to that same dang 50 song format.

BTW, I did lodge a complain with the local "smooth jazz" station, giving them the same basic lambasting that I have here in this forum.  I had to leave my name, address, e-mail address, phone #s, etc...  I'll let you know if they contact me, and what they have to say.  What would you all like to bet that I'll never receive any type of a reply??  

Pat

Guest · Mar 27, 2004

I couldn't agree more with every one. If my pre/pro had no tuner it wouldn't have mattered ang I woudn't have bought one. Like Rip I'm interested in tyring the satellite out and wonder when the big radio megoliths will take it over and kill it. If you have it what do you think so far?

I miss the old radio where the DJs knew tons of stuff and could lead you into great stuff you had never heard. I was lucky enough to be on a great college station - just down the road in Ann Arbor Rip- and I came in thinking I knew alot. Man did I learn there. We had guys with twent, thirty and fifty thousand record collections who forgot more than I'll ever know and they did unbelievable shows. Too bad web radio has died too. At least then, we could hear these few great staions which still exist.

stiletto pat · Mar 27, 2004

A-men brother.....

stiletto pat · Mar 31, 2004

Okay fellow 'holics, gather round the old tube and read my feedback e-mail to my local smooth jazz radio station and the response from the program director, I think you'll find it interesting:

My e-mail:  I really enjoy jazz, and was thrilled when your station entered the Tampa Bay marketplace.  However, I\'ve been unhappy of late with many of the programming decisions.  Namely, the playlist is entirely too short.  Surely you have a tremendous library of fine jazz music - why keep it hidden away while you constantly play the same 50 songs to death.  Even if I liked them originally, after a week of listening to your station, I find that I no longer even want to hear these songs anymore.  Additionally, I have a problem with the inclusion of soul/pop genre tunes mascarading as smooth jazz - nothing could be further from the truth.  Again, I feel certain that you must have a great library of music - please start playing a much greater selection of music.  That type of approach will definitely keep me tuned to your station.

The response:  Thanks for taking the time to comment on our programming. I appreciate the feedback.  

About the repetition of artists and songs that you hear; we choose the music we play based on feedback from our audience. Periodically throughout the year, we gather groups of our listeners together to listen to songs that we play, or are considering playing. Through the use of handheld devices, they "score" the music. It's those scores that largely determine which particular tunes we continue to play, and which ones aren't heard any longer. In that way we're responding directly to the tastes of our listeners, rather than guessing or assuming that we know what they like. Our goal in this process is to find what we call "consensus songs", that is songs that most everyone enjoys hearing. It turns out to be much more difficult than you might think. A comparatively small body of music fits that definition. A song that you love might turn out to be a neutral song for someone else, and even a "disliked" song for a third person. Honestly, most of our audience is not particularly adventurous in their tastes. Each time we conduct one of these research projects, much of the same music by Rick Braun, George Benson, Sade, Luther Vandross, Boney James, Dave Koz, etc., continues to score very well. That's why you keep hearing it.  

As for the "pop" vocal songs to which you've referred, very simply, there are not enough Smooth Jazz fans in the Tampa Bay area to support our station. We very much need the support of listeners who use our station to set an atmosphere at home, in their car, and especially at work. Many of these listeners honestly don't know the difference between Chuck Mangione and Chuck Loeb. They just enjoy the overall feel of the station. The Pop vocals are in our music mix to provide an oasis of familiarity for these folks who otherwise could go hours without hearing a song they know. We try to choose the songs that our listeners tell us are most compatible with the rest of our programming, but obviously we can't be perfect with every choice with every listener.  In any case, this strategy has proven very successful at attracting new listeners to WSJT.

I tell you all this not in the expectation of changing your opinion about the repetition you hear, but as an explanation of how we formulate the body of music that play. It's an ongoing process that we strive to perfect each day. This process has allowed us to be very successful from both a ratings and revenue standpoint. In fact, we are now one of the highest rated Smooth Jazz radio stations in the USA.

There you have it folks, some of the smootheset bs on the radio dial.  It's all about the money, not about the music.  I do understand the commercial realities of running a business, but folks, music isn't just a business, it's highly emotional and vital to our well being.  I for one tend to believe that it simply can't be reduced to pure dollars and cents.

Comments??  Rip old buddy, (amonst other favorites forum members out there...) we always appreciate your well timed pokes and jabs...

Pat

Guest · Mar 31, 2004

This reply from the PD is exactly what is wrong with radio and music in general. They are pandering to the lowest common denominator. The big record labels are no better. For those of us who truly love music as opposed to those who use it as backround noise radiois unlistenable.

I remember a guy who used to record WGBH the Georgetown Univ. station (which was not student run) on reel to reel in the 70s. They were palying new wave in 1974! He had dozens of reels filled with the stuff. Few people knew more than a handful of the artists played but so much was so fantastic. I would count the songs in the sets which ran to 90 minutes long just to find out who did a particular song halfway through. They weren't commercial but another fabulous station WHFS was(no resemblance to the current WHFS in Annapolis). They survived for years despite meager ad revenue. One thing that helped was that although they had less than 1% of the total radio audience it constituted 5% of the records purchased in the Washington DC area. I think if more radio stations caught on to the idea that us audioholics buy a disproportionate amount of the music especially high profit SACDs and audio gear they might pander more to us despite our small numbers.

The real problem is that radio and record labels are both big businesses and are completely in cahoots. The 50s payola stuff is small change compared to now. They have realized that they can dictate the taste of the many by prefabricating the musicians (American idol, making the band, Britney) and this is now accepted. Rising from obscurity and making it locally and then nationally is impossible.The whole downloading issue misses the point. The small artists who might be hurt by it are glad of the exposure. The big artists who are the most downloaded are so obscenely overpaid and the profits of the labels on such overpriced  CDs so absurd we really shouldn't care. END OF RANT. Thank you.

Rob Babcock · Mar 31, 2004

I'm really surprised at his honest- it's rare for an exec to just flat out admit it's about the money.  And astonishly blunt to come out and say his audience is largely ignorant of music.

To play devils advocate for a moment, imagine he does as you ask, starts playing some more adventurous stuff.  Maybe some listeners start tuning in, but perhaps many more would tune out.  Ultimately it's his day job- he's gotta keep the ad revenue rolling in.  I'm not saying it's noble or right, but I can see where he's coming from.  I guess he's not very daring or adventurous either, but it's hard to be when you're accountable for the bottom line.

It's really hard to see how a Bob Dylan, Neil Young or Led Zep could get off the ground if they were starting out in todays market.  Dylan is but ugly and can't dance.  Young is too fond of telling corporate America to stick it.  Zep isn't Nu-Metal, and they don't rap (okay, a little ska in Dyer Maker!

).  There are quality bands out there that make edgier stuff that takes some chances (eg Built To Spill, Flaming Lips) but mostly we get banal stale crap like Madonna, Britney, Boy Bands & the flava-of-da'-month rapper.  

What a chicken and egg problem; is pop music terrible because we demand bad music or is there a demand for awful stuff because that's all that gets pushed on us?  A great supply of crap or a great thirst for crap?  I wish I knew.

zipper · Apr 1, 2004

I think a lot of this crap just gets pushed & most kids are afraid stand on their own 2 feet & say" This is crap!". Silly-butt shows like "American Idol" sure don't help the cause.
 There is talent out there. Too bad somebody else decides for us who has it & who doesn't, instead of just producing some music, giving it some play, & letting the masses decide. I guess it's kind of like the Bose syndrome: If you tell people loud enough & long enough that it's good, they"ll be brainwashed into believing it.

Rip Van Woofer · Apr 3, 2004

It all comes down to the old saw: "No one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public."

Mencken, I think.

A. Vivaldi · Apr 4, 2004

It also comes down to this: Most people just suck. There's nothing that can be done to save them. We must only continue to take notice and reward those who don't.

Westrock2000 · Jun 25, 2004

A. Vivaldi said:
Hey Rip, I totally agree with you on that "smooth jazz". I don't know much about jazz, but from what little I've heard and liked, "smooth jazz" aint it. Excuse me, but isn't this what one would call department store/elevator muzak? Why are there human beings who exist that would ever even contemplate creating this "music"?

What would you rather hear at the grocery store? Rap?

Well I don't know what the fuss is all about. We have 107.5 KOAI (an Oasis channel) here in Dallas/Ft. Worth, and I like most of the music they play. Especially on Sunday night, they have Musical Starstreams which is ambiant/electronic music! But I enjoy electronic based music, so the "live" jazz doesn't really do it for me (I can only listen to brass for so long). But where else am I going to here Sade, or Kenny *? They even play some soft pop like Goerge Michael and Kenny Logins (or the other 50,000 songs that guys from The Doobie Brothers guest appeared in

). But your right they do play alot the same stuff. And in that type of music, no ones really any better than anybody else, cause its all different.

One "radio" that I really like is Live365, it's all a bunch of radio stations that are operated by various individuals. There's some self promotion commercials here and there for the website (gotta generate revenue to run the site some how), but for the most part its great, plus theres like 10,000 radio stations.

I know we have different tastes around here, but I think we can safely say that "smooth jazz" stations definently don't play the worst crap on the radio.

Fed Up with FM Programming

stiletto pat

Audioholic

frkuhn

Audioholic Intern

stiletto pat

Audioholic

Rip Van Woofer

Audioholic General

jeffsg4mac

Republican Poster Boy

stiletto pat

Audioholic

Rob Babcock

Moderator

A. Vivaldi

Audioholic

Rob Babcock

Moderator

jeffsg4mac

Republican Poster Boy

stiletto pat

Audioholic

Guest

Guest

stiletto pat

Audioholic

stiletto pat

Audioholic

Guest

Guest

Rob Babcock

Moderator

zipper

Full Audioholic

Rip Van Woofer

Audioholic General

A. Vivaldi

Audioholic

Westrock2000

Junior Audioholic

Similar threads

Latest posts