Fantastic article on frequency response

[WmAx]

I could make a speaker with FR variation of +/- 3 or 4dB(that's right, 6-8 dB deviations in response), and another with +/- 0.5dB, and make the one with the large variations sound far better by designing in the other, very important response characteristics into one with the poorer response, guided by perceptual research for my designs. That is how relevant FR is by itself..... and why I find the article to be not good/accurate. The article needs to add in much more information, even for the layman, so that some critical things are understood.

-Chris

 

[highfigh]

Actually my best friend first saw a graph in the US. He graduated from high school in Germany.

That sounds fishy. The guy I mentioned from Prague said he had done all of the material in our freshman algebra class when he was in what would be equivalent to our third grade. That may be due to him being in an advanced program because of genetics/father's tutoring, but still- that's 6 years ahead of the rest of us. The first graphs I saw were probably in fifth or sixth grade, although they were pretty simple, not like parabolic/hyperbolic functions and I was never in any kind of advance math, by any stretch. If I had been, life would be completely different for me.

 

[highfigh]

I could make a speaker with FR variation of +/- 3 or 4dB(that's right, 6-8 dB deviations in response), and another with +/- 0.5dB, and make the one with the large variations sound far better by designing in the other, very important response characteristics into one with the poorer response, guided by perceptual research for my designs. That is how relevant FR is by itself..... and why I find the article to be not good/accurate. The article needs to add in much more information, even for the layman, so that some critical things are understood.

-Chris

You mean by avoiding large variations that are close together and making the response smoother overall, but with more total variation compared to another that has a lot of little ripples all over?

 

[WmAx]

You mean by avoiding large variations that are close together and making the response smoother overall, but with more total variation compared to another that has a lot of little ripples all over?

Far more than that. I could use largely dips and few peaks, have far better off axis response, far better resonance behaviour for the system, etc,; just as some basic differences that would make the ultra flat response absolutely meaningless to determine the sound, with the 'ragged' FR one sounding far superior.

-Chris

 

[3db]

Far more than that. I could use largely dips and few peaks, have far better off axis response, far better resonance behaviour for the system, etc,; just as some basic differences that would make the ultra flat response absolutely meaningless to determine the sound, with the 'ragged' FR one sounding far superior.

-Chris

Look at the detail you are going too? Do you honestly think a layman is even aware of such things? This is what I'm driving at. Because you are so immersed into this, you find it very difficult to pull away from it and look at it from a completely different paradigm. This is not a good or bad thing. Just an observation made.

 

[Midwesthonky]

Interesting back and forth going on here.

From a former layman, the article did a decent job of introducing one aspect of conducting an educated speaker search. I liked it and it introduced one aspect to me in a way that I could understand. However, I am a technical person who gets off on data, graphs and what they are telling me. So I had a strong basis for understanding the article.

It points out there is more to it that just the data quoted in sales literature. But for those that understand that basic data point, it can help you avoid some Chinese knock-off no-name speaker on an auction sight for a killer price.

As for the discussion on high school math, in the US high school math skills are generally embarassingly pathetic in my humble opinion. I remember an MBA class where fellow students were carrying on about how hard the homework was and they spend ungodly hours on it. These are the "future" business leaders? I did the assignment in 30 minutes using a spreadsheet which included time to surf the web. The math skills of these future leaders was embarrassing.

 

[highfigh]

Look at the detail you are going too? Do you honestly think a layman is even aware of such things? This is what I'm driving at. Because you are so immersed into this, you find it very difficult to pull away from it and look at it from a completely different paradigm. This is not a good or bad thing. Just an observation made.

One thing I would say about noobs and whether they know what they're reading or hearing- if the person demonstrating the equipment has any integrity, they'll explain what is being heard and why. One speaker that may have a good reputation may sound terrible when heard off-axis and in some rooms, it's difficult to not be off-axis, so a speaker with really good dispersion is needed. Long, narrow rooms don't need speakers with wide dispersion, either.

Anyone getting into this kind of gear needs to do some research and I can understand why some don't- they aren't interested in the technical side, at all. For them, the only hope they have of not being disappointed is finding a good dealer who won't bend them over and take their money, selling dead inventory just to get rid of it.

 

[highfigh]

Interesting back and forth going on here.

From a former layman, the article did a decent job of introducing one aspect of conducting an educated speaker search. I liked it and it introduced one aspect to me in a way that I could understand. However, I am a technical person who gets off on data, graphs and what they are telling me. So I had a strong basis for understanding the article.

It points out there is more to it that just the data quoted in sales literature. But for those that understand that basic data point, it can help you avoid some Chinese knock-off no-name speaker on an auction sight for a killer price.

As for the discussion on high school math, in the US high school math skills are generally embarassingly pathetic in my humble opinion. I remember an MBA class where fellow students were carrying on about how hard the homework was and they spend ungodly hours on it. These are the "future" business leaders? I did the assignment in 30 minutes using a spreadsheet which included time to surf the web. The math skills of these future leaders was embarrassing.

I was never good at Algebra but had far less trouble with Analytical Geometry and Trigonometry. Since Calc is Algebra on steroids, with clusters, I didn't do well in that one. My problem is that unless I have an application for the topic, I don't pick up on it very well. That's unfortunate because I wanted to be an architect. Not everyone is good with higher math but evaluation testing needs to be done so the ones who have no hope of mastering it don't waste their time. These people can still be good at other areas but for some, the light switch just hasn't been flipped on yet. The thing I noticed in high school is that the teachers didn't pay much attention to those who weren't the best and brightest. I found that odd- why spend more time with the ones who already understand the course material? Our best and brightest are up there with anyone else and it's a good thing we have more than 300 million people here because if we were a small country, we would have been re-conquered long ago.

 

[njedpx3]

How many people who graduated high school didn't take a math class that used graphs? NONE OF THEM- every school uses graphs in at least one math class! This means that they should be able to think all the way back, sometimes more than 5 years (oh, the horrors!) and try to remember that the x axis is for one measurement, the y axis is for another and the z axis is for yet another- in the case of speaker measurement, x=frequency, y=amplitude and z=time. How hard is that? EVERYONE did this in math class and most rationalize failing math because "I'll never use this after I get out of here, so why bother learning it?".

Shows how smart high school students are and it shows that schools all over are failing to teach the ability to look forward.

This isn't rocket surgery. Even a C math student should be able to see that if the amplitude doesn't vary much across the frequency band, it's better than when the plot looks like the Himalayas. This means that most people should be able to use at least one graph in the speaker buying process. If they can use the information from a waterfall plot (showing the response over time), even better.

Highfigh,

You have a very,very optimist view of how much people learned or remember about math in high school. I personally feel I am an exception becuase I loved math, probability and statistics. But even an "A" student, in most cases won't remember graphs much less a "C" student. Then trying to explain a logrithmic graph, decibels, SPL, attenuation, resonance and different frequencies to the average "Joe" ... they will never get it!

I agree with JerryLove the quantitative measurements are the actual discerning differentiator between speakers, but alot of people don't understand. You can dispaly the information many ways; waterfall 3-D graphs, regualr X-Y graphs, breadown by frequnecy ranges, specifc gain at key frequncies, e.g. 100 Hz, etc. That is why there are audio and sales consultants. As long as they are ethical and honest then the customer is safe. The problem comes with integrity when the sales consultant is told to push a particular brand.

Then another realitive metric is pricing, which needs to be taken into account .. normally, but not always, higher price means better speakers. Then after all is said and done, the qualitative measurement comes in to play ..what sounds best to the listener.

Peace and Good Sound,

Forest Man

 

[njedpx3]

Man I know I am going to sound like the constant negative guy. LOL. But that is not a very good article. Nor very accurate. Determining sound of a speaker based upon measurements is possible, but it requires (1) very extensive measurements of different types [and] (2)a person extremely knowledgeable in human auditory response to the measured characteristics.

The person writing the article is from the MARKETING department, it says so at the start of the article. He did not even sufficiently describe importance/relevance of frequency response.

-Chris

Nice response WmAx -not everyone appreciates your knowledge - njedpx3 (Forest Man)

 

[3db]

One thing I would say about noobs and whether they know what they're reading or hearing- if the person demonstrating the equipment has any integrity, they'll explain what is being heard and why. One speaker that may have a good reputation may sound terrible when heard off-axis and in some rooms, it's difficult to not be off-axis, so a speaker with really good dispersion is needed. Long, narrow rooms don't need speakers with wide dispersion, either.

Anyone getting into this kind of gear needs to do some research and I can understand why some don't- they aren't interested in the technical side, at all. For them, the only hope they have of not being disappointed is finding a good dealer who won't bend them over and take their money, selling dead inventory just to get rid of it.

Which makes this article a good starter point..like a few of us have been saying all along. Its written from the point of view with terms that everyone can understand and is reasonably accurate enough without digging in Laplace Transforms, Fourier Analysis, Bessel Equations and the like. Coming from an Electrical Engineering background but having managed people as well, I can assure you that this article to the layman is sound.

I've also shyed away from sales people who tried to bury me with technical mumble jumble (in areas that i had no clue about) because I figured they were trying to "snow" me with it. When getting technical, one has to be very careful because it may come across as a snow job. Its a real fine line between technical and trying to pull the wool over one's eye and I wonder how many well meaning sales people (with integrity) crossed that line. And to be clear for everyone reading this last statement, I'm not referencing anyone on this site let alone this thread.

But as a whole, I do agree with you that it takes a person with integrity not to fleece an unsuspecting customer. I have had such an experience recently with a salesman who sold me a snowblower. He didn't try to upsell me at all. He asked me how large my drive way was and then he asked me about my garage and if I parked both vehicles into the garage. I told him the dimesions and then he pointed me out to a particular model I hadn't considered because I thought it too small (tool time everything big is better) . I told him I thought it was too small for my needs. He informed me politely that if I wanted to keep both cars in the garage and the snowblower too (which is what I wanted) then go for a model no bigger than what I've shown you. Space in the garage was one thing that totally slipped my mind. I was after horsepower and size but he reigned me in rather nicely. I'm glad I listened to him because it does fit snuggly between the two cars inside my garage.

 

[highfigh]

Which makes this article a good starter point..like a few of us have been saying all along. Its written from the point of view with terms that everyone can understand and is reasonably accurate enough without digging in Laplace Transforms, Fourier Analysis, Bessel Equations and the like. Coming from an Electrical Engineering background but having managed people as well, I can assure you that this article to the layman is sound.

I've also shyed away from sales people who tried to bury me with technical mumble jumble (in areas that i had no clue about) because I figured they were trying to "snow" me with it. When getting technical, one has to be very careful because it may come across as a snow job. Its a real fine line between technical and trying to pull the wool over one's eye and I wonder how many well meaning sales people (with integrity) crossed that line. And to be clear for everyone reading this last statement, I'm not referencing anyone on this site let alone this thread.

But as a whole, I do agree with you that it takes a person with integrity not to fleece an unsuspecting customer. I have had such an experience recently with a salesman who sold me a snowblower. He didn't try to upsell me at all. He asked me how large my drive way was and then he asked me about my garage and if I parked both vehicles into the garage. I told him the dimesions and then he pointed me out to a particular model I hadn't considered because I thought it too small (tool time everything big is better) . I told him I thought it was too small for my needs. He informed me politely that if I wanted to keep both cars in the garage and the snowblower too (which is what I wanted) then go for a model no bigger than what I've shown you. Space in the garage was one thing that totally slipped my mind. I was after horsepower and size but he reigned me in rather nicely. I'm glad I listened to him because it does fit snuggly between the two cars inside my garage.

As the saying goes, "If you can't impress them with facts, baffle them with BS".

This wouldn't fit your needs?

 

[3db]

As the saying goes, "If you can't impress them with facts, baffle them with BS".

This wouldn't fit your needs?

That's soooo cool but I would have to get rid of one of my cars. Thanks for the laugh.