Fact or Fiction? More power=better sound?

[Hoikensnogin]

I've heard several sales people tell me that high power receivers (more watts/channel) give you cleaner, more detailed sound even if your system doesn't need the power.

Please educate me....I have Klipsch RF-7's up front, and RF-3's in the rear (still collecting the rest). Klipsch are very efficient.

So If I get 150 watts/channel, but barely turn it up so my ears don't bleed...it's not delivering that much power to my speakers right? It's only delivering a few watts because that's all my ears can stand right?

So I don't understand how 150 watts/channel can sound better than 110 watts/channel if they're both only delivering a small fraction of their capabilites.

More expensive receivers sound better, but I figured that was due to better construction, shielding, etc and not because they generally happen to be capable of more power.

 

[joelincoln]

Sounds to me like you've got it just right.

Plenty of factors impact the amount of required power... room size/materials, speaker efficiency, music type, and, as you already realized, listener volume preference.

Assuming that we're talking about quality equipment here, and assuming that you know that you're already happy with low-volume settings on a 150W amp, then there's no advantage to buying a bigger amp simply to get more power.

IMHO

And always remember my credo... you can tell when a saleman is lying by watching if his lips move.

 

[Unregistered]

The difference between 110 and 150 watts is practically inaudible, assuming other specs such as distortion are comparable.

The only advantage to having more power than you will ever need is that the amp doesn't have to work very hard to produce the volume you want. As the amp works harder the distortion goes up and possibly the sound will be affected. So...running a high power amp at half its possible range should sound better than a lower powered amp running full out.

 

[BuddTX]

The way that it was explained to me, years ago, that actually made sense, was that, when listening at normal levels, there can be split seconds where the needed power will peak, say, a woodblock or a gunshot, or a cymbal, or a rim shot or whip, ect. The large amp will more accuratly reproduce that sound, whereas the lesser powered amp would "clip", the wave signal would not be reproduced correctly.

Then there are companies like NAD and OUTLAW, that have very conservatively rated amp's on their receivers, but give clean sound, because they can reproduce the sounds at normal levels without clipping.

Someone else might be able to explain this in a clearer format!

 

[nm2285]

In my personal experience, I went from a 75W Denon to a 120W (210 max) NAD and the power supply made a huge difference. I think most of this is due to the fact that I am running inefficient speakers, however. With something like the Klipsch, I'm sure you could use 50W with fine results.

 

[joelincoln]

Guys,
Don't confuse the issue. You're referring to dynamic power and the ability of a power supply to keep up with demand.

HOWEVER,
Even amps with little dynamic headroom and weak power supplies can provide plenty of dynamic power if they're only being driven at a quarter of their rated power. (And again, let's assume we're talking about quality stuff... not something you'd pick up at WalMart).

 

[Unregistered]

Current

I work for a major chain of retail stores that sell high-end audio. I will not state which one. What they tell us and what we hear from the brand reps. is that power (wattage) is not what drives speakers. Rather Current is. That's why an amp that is made by a company like Harman/Kardon is going to sound a lot better with lower power than something crappy like um... Sony. Higher end brands use high current power supplies, where companies like sony use crap for power. Delivering a constant higher current allows the sudden peaks (woodblock, gunshot, cymbal) to have plenty of power. Because its always there when it needs it.

 

[Yamahaluver]

Here is my take, clean power mated to efficient speaker is a better choice, usually one would expect a high power amp to be working at 1/4 its rated capacity most of the times therefore theoriticaly it should be almost class A operation in some cases, therefore the reccomendation for high power.

 

[sheep]

certain sounds require more power.

the extra power is not just to make it louder. yes, it can go louder but that doesn't mean you need it. the headroom on the amplifier will be needed when a bass hit, or louder then normal sound is played. bass is a great example because it hogs power. thusly having more power will mean that the bass will stay as loud as the treble even though its drawing more power. its like biamping in the sence the extra power is there to assist when needed. having efficient speakers also helps because then you won't need to use as mouch of the amplifier power, resulting in less distortion.


sheep

 

[joelincoln]

QUOTE:
Harman/Kardon is going to sound a lot better with lower power than something crappy like um... Sony


No arguement there. However, I assume that you're not saying that H/K's highest power amp is always going to sound better than their next highest power amp regardless of listening level simply because of its higher max power rating ???

There are many factors in producing good sound as I know we'll all agree. But as long as the listener will use the product well below its maximum rating, purchasing more power will not buy him anything. If a larger amp also employs better electronics, more efficient amp design, or some other improvement, then that may have an impact on sound performance. But simply increasing max power when it is not being used is not "value-added".

 

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

And don't think that you're clear for a low-powered amp because your Klipsch speaker is "efficient". The product may be 98dbs at 1khrz, but how much music is at 1khz? 1/20,000 of all audible music!

I assure you you will not get all 98 db's out of your, or any speaker with a single watt when you get down into the bassy parts.

Your music is thousans of different tones, most of which are not in the efficient sweet-spot of a loudspeaker. This is the primary reason people buy super-amps and listen at regular levels. When the kick-drum and the cymbal crash at the same time..you need some serious power at just that second.

 

[Rob Babcock]

To actually reproduce the momentary attack impulse of a rimshot or drumstroke can require over a thousand watts & the ability to absorb that power without dynamic or thermal compression. Needless to say this is a near impossibility. The dynamics of many real world sounds (eg gunshot, jet plane) are simply beyond the ability of any real system to reproduce accurately.

Which is not to say it's not worth trying. The more acoustic power we can pump out the closer we can get to recreating these events, whether musical or HT/special effects. To that end, I think all else being equal more power is better. If it's clean power, that it.

 

[zipper]

OK,you guys have answered a lot of questions I have about adding an amp to my yammy.I've noticed just what you are saying about a sudden call for power from the amp. When listening to some music(let's use Bryan Adams' "Heaven" as an example) at low to almost moderate levels,the changes in the music have a good impact on the listener.At higher than moderate levels the amp in the 3300 seems to peter out;there is no slam on the harder passages in the song but rather just a run-on from the previous passage.
I don't want 250wpc so I can piss off my neighbors,I want it so that I can enjoy my music(& HT) at several different volumes,each one as enjoyable as the others.The Axiom 60's I have aren't the most efficient speakers out there but they're not ML's either. They tend to sound brighter with more volume.I want to know if it's more the speaker or what it's being fed,so I'm searching for an amp.

 

[Rip Van Woofer]

They [the speakers] tend to sound brighter with more volume.I want to know if it's more the speaker or what it's being fed,so I'm searching for an amp.

It's most likely the speaker. An upward spectral shift (brighter sound) at higher volumes is common with many speakers and it has nothing to do with the amplifier. A woofer, unlike a tweeter or midrange driver, is limited by the sheer volume of air it can move to reproduce low frequencies (long wavelengths) at high SPLs. High frequencies (short wavelengths) involve little air volume movement by comparison. So what happens is, as you turn up the loudness, the woofer sort of runs out of gas as it reaches the limit of how much air it can push (a factor of its size and excursion) but the tweeter keeps getting louder (until you fry it!).

A good powered sub (or a bigger one, or a second one if you already have a sub) would solve the problem, and take a load off your Yammy.

As for peak and instantaneous power, Dan Banquer has dealt with that pretty conclusively in another thread or three. Search out his comments. Bottom line: continuous ("RMS") power is all that matters, counterintuitive as it may seem. If you're getting distortion due to clipping, you need more. Simple as that.

And remember, each doubling of an amps wattage only gets you 3dB louder.

 

[zipper]

Thanks Rip.Your points are duely noted.Other than watching movies,I haven't listened to my setup with mains set to "small" & let the sub relieve the amp of some of the work.Sort of seems like a waste of the speaker.I'm gonna give it a shot & play with it for a bit.



I guess part of me is just looking for an excuse to buy another piece of gear.

 

[Unregistered]

With all being equal, you are correct. A powerful amplifier being driven to...say... 1/4 of its power compared to a lesser amplifier being driven to 1/2 its power should not make a difference. Unfortunately, not is all equal in the real world.

The analogy I like to use is the automobile one. We use it for everything else, like computers, so why not audio!

Can a 4 cylinder engine go 120 miles per hour? Yah, under some circumstances. So can a 8 cylinder 350HP engine. Which will do it easier? Which is the smoother ride? Which engine "sounds" better doing it?

-Robert

 

[joelincoln]

You are comparing apples to oranges... a better comparison is two V8s, one with 350hp and one with 250hp. And 120mph is hardly 1/4 of the engine's ability. Compare them at say 60mph which is probably closer to 1/3 of their ability (ungoverned).

Now ask the question again.

 

[surveyor]

I will add my two cents to this discussion.
If your speakers are very efficient, the need for a high powered amp is not necessary!
I will also add this, that the more reserve power you have, the less chance that your amp will clip at reasonable listening levels.
To have an amp that produces, for example 500 Watts RMS at full Bandwidth is definatley not a bad thing, so long as you do not play back your music at extreme levels and damage your hearing.
It has been my experience that very powerfull amps sound cleaner at higher volume levels.
In summary, a high powered amp is a good thing if used wisely.
I use 1000 Watt Mono Amps for my front left and right channels.
What, say again please I can't hear you?

Cheers