extremely high quality and extremely loud

AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
To the OP, you can probably add the B&W 801D to your if-I-win-the-lottery list.
It depends on how big the lotery is.:D

If I won $300 Million, B&W speakers would be too CHEAP for me.:D

If I'm going to dream about winning the big one, I might as well dream about the $1,000,000 speakers.:D
 
Midcow2

Midcow2

Banned
Loud and Clear

Denon AVR 5805CI
McIntosh MC2KW
Wilson Audio Alexandria X-2
Wilson Audio Maxx
Quad - JL Audio FATHOM 113f
 
DD66000

DD66000

Senior Audioholic
Since you're talking very good, very loud, and spending someone else's money, my choice would be JBL's top of the line Everest, @ $60k/pr.
 
Midcow2

Midcow2

Banned
with speakers that good, OP also needs ....

Since you're talking very good, very loud, and spending someone else's money, my choice would be JBL's top of the line Everest, @ $60k/pr.
The $500,000 bionic ear channel upgrade to full 7.2 HMI ( Human Machine Interface) sound input. What good is 7.2 sound if you have to down-convert it to two channel low quality human ear interfaces ?
 
F

fredk

Audioholic General
Sigh... Comfy chair's not big enough for this crowd.

Fred
 
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larry7995

Full Audioholic
I don't listen to techno all the time, I think that type of music is just hard on speakers when played loud, I am a musical schizo - one day its techno, the next I probably listening to the infamous stringdusters, the next might be earth wind and fire, and the next beethoven,and then maybe lamb of god and pretty much every third day is Steely Dan so its all good! I think after I get a massive sub in fall I will be happier, then when my future wife gets me the B&Ws it will all be ok :D
 
croseiv

croseiv

Audioholic Samurai
I don't listen to techno all the time, I think that type of music is just hard on speakers when played loud, I am a musical schizo - one day its techno, the next I probably listening to the infamous stringdusters, the next might be earth wind and fire, and the next beethoven,and then maybe lamb of god and pretty much every third day is Steely Dan so its all good! I think after I get a massive sub in fall I will be happier, then when my future wife gets me the B&Ws it will all be ok :D

I noticed you're running Axiom M80s. While those are fairly efficient, they are 4 ohm speakers. I bet they're taxing your receiver a little (especially cranked), hence the distortion.
 
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larry7995

Full Audioholic
Actually I am running them through Outlaw M2200 monoblocks so I am hoping that isn't the problem.
 
croseiv

croseiv

Audioholic Samurai
Actually I am running them through Outlaw M2200 monoblocks so I am hoping that isn't the problem.
Didn't see the monoblocks in your sig. In that case you must have really been cranking them...:eek:
 
Haoleb

Haoleb

Audioholic Field Marshall
True, but I think people have to develop a good personal reference. Now I admit that is difficult in the pop/rock world. The music is largely already electronic!

However in the classical world it is possible and essential. Regular attendance at concerts is de rigeur. Now I recorded live concerts over many years. Those years were pivotal in honing my speaker designs. Which was one of the reasons I recorded so many concerts as a public service to the local public radio station. Once you have a good internal frame of reference it does not take long to tell whether a speaker is accurate or not. We are not talking just pleasing here, but pleasing and accurate.

So, Basically what your saying is that unless one attends classical music concerts and largely listens to classical music they dont know what sounds good or accurate and their opinion is not important.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
So, Basically what your saying is that unless one attends classical music concerts and largely listens to classical music they dont know what sounds good or accurate and their opinion is not important.
You added the last five words.

However the fact remains, that all good speaker designers I have known have done crucial final voicing by ear.

To do that you have to have frame of reference. I can not voice with music whose genesis is reproduced to a large extent electronically.

If you look at one of the largest influences in the development of loudspeakers, it was their use as recording monitors in the recording music in concert halls, churches and the opera house.

There probably was no greater influence than what came out of the collaboration between the BBC engineering department and a number of designers, especially Jim Rogers, Peter Walker and Raymond Cooke.

Now the BBC did, and still do record a huge number of live musical events day after day. There have set benchmark standards in natural balances resulting in accurate tonality and perspective. They record large symphonic works, and during the Proms multiple concerts every day for two months associated with what is by far and away the worlds largest music festival. They also maintain their own orchestras though out the regions of the British isles, recording at various venues and their own studios. In addition to regular concerts in London and the regions, they record a large number of major Festivals through out the isles, such as Aldeborough, Cheltenham, and the three choirs festival. Recordings are made in the cathedrals if the British Isles at least weekly. Their archives are truly vast.

With that sort of program, one of heir essential needs was for accurate loudspeakers for monitoring. The development of superior speakers became one of the big areas of research in the BBC engineering department during the sixties, seventies and eighties. This was curtailed after Margaret Thatcher cut their budget following huge cost over runs, developing the worlds first digital mixing desk with mixer manufacturer, Rupert Neve.

This speaker program at the BBC was seminal in the development of many British speaker companies, such as Mordant Short, Harbeth, Castle acoustics and quite a few others. There was significant cross fertilization with Rogers, Quad and KEF whose managing directors were heavily involved in these endeavors. Peter Walker was a flute player also and regularly seen in the flute section during the Three Choirs Festival.

Now the point of this, is that accurate speakers are essential tools for making accurate recordings of non amplified music. I found that to be absolutely true in the 20 years or so I was making regular live recordings largely for Public Radio broadcast. I can tell you that hearing the live event at rehearsal and going to and fro the monitoring control location soon lets you know if you have an accurate speaker.

So yes, I believe you do need a strong aural reference from live events to not only voice a speaker properly, but to choose one, at least if it is accuracy you are after. I fail to see how that reference can be music that does not have a life independent of speakers and electronics. I'm not alone in that belief at all.

I honestly can not tell if a speaker is any good or not, reproducing music that has no life outside electronic reproduction. So if live acoustic music in a variety of venues is the sheet anchor of your internal frame of reference, then yes, regular attendance at concerts free from electronic reproducing devices and microphones is essential.

Peter Walker had this slogan for Quad from inception: "The closest approach to the original sound." He would have told you you have to have an original sound.
 
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larry7995

Full Audioholic
Didn't see the monoblocks in your sig. In that case you must have really been cranking them...:eek:
Bad habit from my metal maniac days...

I was listening to the DMP Big Band cd Carved In Stone today after work and had it cranked up pretty loud and it sounded super. I don't want anyone to think I don't like my M80s, they are great speakers.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
Why? You are like one of those Sen. Clinton fans screaming and yelling her name for no reason (at least no real reason other than pure confusion). I will never understand why you feel there is an advantage to having your system seperated in such a fashion, it makes ZERO sense, NONE!
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
True, but I think people have to develop a good personal reference. Now I admit that is difficult in the pop/rock world. The music is largely already electronic!

However in the classical world it is possible and essential. Regular attendance at concerts is de rigeur. Now I recorded live concerts over many years. Those years were pivotal in honing my speaker designs. Which was one of the reasons I recorded so many concerts as a public service to the local public radio station. Once you have a good internal frame of reference it does not take long to tell whether a speaker is accurate or not. We are not talking just pleasing here, but pleasing and accurate.

I have designed a few custom high powered speakers in my time. Not many, as my designs are much higher in cost than commercial realizations and bids.

Until a few months ago I had a modular high performance high spl system that I used on location very occasionally. Unfortunately due to lack of storage space available to me now, I had to break it up and some of the drivers will go up for sale on eBay.

In 1988 I was engaged to record the ND Centennial Opera, Sakakawea.

A New York director was hired, and the assistant conductor of the Dallas Symphony Orchestra. Only two of the singers were fully professional, and the orchestra pit in the Chester Fritz Auditorium is on the small size. Sound reinforcement was required, and an outfit hired to do it. When I arrived the composer was having a fit over the sound, and asked me if there was anything I could do.

I went home, organized a crew and brought in my modular system and 1200 watts of amp power all together.

I carefully set up microphones in the orchestra pit, and hid microphones in the scenery. When I got the system working, the New York director vowed the system was not working, as he was used to his "commercial sound."

I took the director up to the first balcony. I had an assistant at the control desk. When I raised my hand, I had the assistant cut my system, when I lowered it, I had him restore it. When the system came in the sound increased about 10 db, but the character of the sound did not change.

Members of the audience surveyed after the performance did not believe sound reinforcement had been used. That is what I mean by an accurate high spl system.

Honestly, the only highly accurate high spl systems I have heard, have been custom.

The reason is cost. If you can build it for a one off, it is OK. But once you talk low volume production, the cost becomes prohibitive. I did a cost analysis just for fun, I did a cost analysis of what the final retail coast of my three front speakers would be if you produced them for retail. The cost with manufacture, freight distributor and dealer, would put the front three speakers at around $100,000.

I guess thats one of the reasons I'm drawn so much to PSB. Paul Barton is first and foremost a violinist and he has a very solid idea of what music should sound like. Take this with his extensive work at the NRC in tuning his designs and you get an excellent speaker. My T45s sound soo good with classical music.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Why? You are like one of those Sen. Clinton fans screaming and yelling her name for no reason (at least no real reason other than pure confusion). I will never understand why you feel there is an advantage to having your system seperated in such a fashion, it makes ZERO sense, NONE!
Well, my approach would only appeal to the Purist Group who believes that the best sound quality comes from the separate analog stereo preamplifiers. They only believe in Source Direct Pure Direct without Tone, Balance, or Equalizer Controls. They don't even believe in bass/speaker management because they believe that all speakers should be full range 20Hz-20kHz.

That's why Mark Levinson still sells their analog stereo preamps for $25K. Krell and Bryston, to name just a few, still sell their analog preamps for $4K.

The human mind is a very complex piece of machine.

That's what makes humans special.:D

To this day, I still have yet to hear of anyone else doing what I'm doing, which is fine by me. It only makes my system more unique.

Hey, at least I'm giving some people something to talk about.:D

You may hear something like, "Man, I heard this crazy guy on my forum using 4 separate stereo preamps and 7 monoblock amps in his HT system. Does that make any sense whatsover to you? He is insane!":D

Not too longer ago, I was using FOUR Acurus RL-11 preamps and FOUR Acurus 200X3 amps!!!

Now I'm down to just 3 Integrated amps, and you're still giving me a hard time?:D
 
GlocksRock

GlocksRock

Audioholic Spartan
but once you get tired of upgrading your preamps and amps, you will need something else to upgrade, and you will end up going back to 7.1, it's just a matter of time. Knowing you it's inevitable, and will happen probably sooner than later.
 
DD66000

DD66000

Senior Audioholic
but once you get tired of upgrading your preamps and amps, you will need something else to upgrade, and you will end up going back to 7.1, it's just a matter of time. Knowing you it's inevitable, and will happen probably sooner than later.
Well then he can upgrade the speakers. No matter how good your speakers are, which maybe the very best today, will, at some point, be out done by some newer, even higher end speakers. and the beat goes on, and the beat goes on.:cool:
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Well, my approach would only appeal to the Purist Group who believes that the best sound quality comes from the separate analog stereo preamplifiers. They only believe in Source Direct Pure Direct without Tone, Balance, or Equalizer Controls. They don't even believe in bass/speaker management because they believe that all speakers should be full range 20Hz-20kHz.

That's why Mark Levinson still sells their analog stereo preamps for $25K. Krell and Bryston, to name just a few, still sell their analog preamps for $4K.

The human mind is a very complex piece of machine.

That's what makes humans special.:D

To this day, I still have yet to hear of anyone else doing what I'm doing, which is fine by me. It only makes my system more unique.

Hey, at least I'm giving some people something to talk about.:D

You may hear something like, "Man, I heard this crazy guy on my forum using 4 separate stereo preamps and 7 monoblock amps in his HT system. Does that make any sense whatsover to you? He is insane!":D

Not too longer ago, I was using FOUR Acurus RL-11 preamps and FOUR Acurus 200X3 amps!!!

Now I'm down to just 3 Integrated amps, and you're still giving me a hard time?:D
You have a little way to go to get crazy as me, but your closing in!

I agree with Seth do a degree, as you have more high gain stages, contributing their share of problems than a truly elegant solution would demand.

I think you did that to have control most likely. Obviously balancing all those amps is vital. I have fourteen amp channels to balance. I have one main preamp processor. I have three subsidiary pre amps for the turntables and three of the the tape decks.

Now I found that when I was using the 1 db steps on the master preamp speaker set up, the steps were too great. I was constantly fiddling. Since adding analog trimmers for all of the 7.1 channels I have not touched a thing since the last level calibration. I have just enjoyed it. Remote adjusted levels of 1 db increments are a pox. So you have a point there. I use no Eq. whatever, except to archive, or touch up a vintage recording. I firmly believe good systems do not need Eq I agree with you on this also.

Now in terms of integrated speakers I have to agree with you also. The biggest remaining problem with moving coil loudspeakers is that the musical fundamentals are separated in time and phase from their harmonic content. We are just too Cavalier about this problem. If ever you get a chance, listen CAREFULLY to a good full ranger. It is a revelation. I keep a set for reference and to keep a gold standard. I plan more full rangers for reference.

I try my very best in my systems not to be Cavalier about this and keep time a phase distortions to the absolute minimum required to obtain as flat a response as possible and keep divers in their optimal pass bands.

Now putting a sub woofer any place in the room does huge violence. The one thing that visitors stress time and again about this system is the realism and bass definition compared to anything else they have experienced. I think for a state of the art reference system having the sub right under the mains, or part of the mains is important. This is a problem with WAF. However, I had large speakers in my apartment. So my wife knew that the size of our speakers was going to be dictated by physics and not WAF at the start of the marriage.

You are beginning to show you understand something important in this post.

I should have defined full ranger. I'm referring to speakers that have no crossover and use one full range moving coil driver.

I have to say that if I were put in charge of the R & D department of a speaker driver manufacturer, I would make the development of full range drivers a top priority, or at least greatly extend the pass band of drivers. If we could just get the handover to the HF unit in the 5 to 6 KHz range, it would be a huge advance.
 
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