Extraordinary claims

gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Example 1) The Role Audio Sampan is 4" square X 36" high with a single 4" driver. Claimed frequency response is 35Hz-20Khz +/-3.5 dB with a -6dB point of 28Hz. (Yes, I did say a 4" driver!)

Example 2) Totem Acoustics sells a small, bullet-shaped piece of metal called a "beak". Placing the beaks on top of their speakers is said to significantly improve performance.
If the enclosure is large enough, the speaker may play down to 28Hz but at what SPL? Loudspeaker manufacturers almost never tell you that.

The beak placed on the cabinet is bizzare and IMO if the cabinet was well designed to begin with, why would you need to do that?

This reminds me of an article I wrote nearly 9 years ago on this very topic:
http://www.audioholics.com/buying-guides/how-to-shop/avoiding-loudspeaker-gimmicks
 
bandphan

bandphan

Banned
I have not stated a SINGLE OPINION to defend DefTech. No one said you did

All I've stated were the FACTS. me 2, im not mad

BTW, $10,000/pr MartinLogan Prodigy:
Per Manufacturer: 28 Hz – 20 kHz +/-3dB
Per Home Theater Mag: 37 Hz – 20 kHz +/-3dB (stated the were the bestest most impressive speaker ever)jk

Hmmmm.....
Seems like a highly possible fr, depending on how the test was conducted;) I never throw ml around either, so im not bitting:D fyi my mls are rated at 46–20,000 Hz ± 3dB and ive measured my in room down to 37 hmmmm:)
My only issue is with dt stating hz into the mid teens on their 7000 series.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
J

Joe Schmoe

Audioholic Ninja
My only issue is with dt stating hz into the mid teens on their 7000 series.
Since the BP10Bs reach 20Hz -3dB (as verified by Stereophile), and are passive, I see no reason why the 7000s would not reach well into the teens with their built-in subs.
 
bandphan

bandphan

Banned
Since the BP10Bs reach 20Hz -3dB (as verified by Stereophile), and are passive, I see no reason why the 7000s would not reach well into the teens with their built-in subs.
This is my last post on dt.......(today) :rolleyes: Stereophile=garbage 1 of Sterophiles biggest ADV $s = DefTech. There are only a handfull of reviewers i trust any more (and yes TN is one of them, and he did give the BPs a good reveiw)

edit : the rest of this afternoons post will be brought to you by the blackberry cruve, making bar browsing better
 
Midcow2

Midcow2

Banned
Rose colored glasses ;)

This is my last post on dt.......(today) :rolleyes: Stereophile=garbage 1 of Sterophiles biggest ADV $s = DefTech. There are only a handfull of reviewers i trust any more (and yes TN is one of them, and he did give the BPs a good reveiw)

edit : the rest of this afternoons post will be brought to you by the blackberry cruve, making bar browsing better
Bandphan it is just hard to see the truth through Martin Logan colored glasses. ;) Have a great rest of your afternoon and weekend; I think I need to pop a cold one and reevaluate my DTs sound quality:D
 
bandphan

bandphan

Banned
Bandphan it is just hard to see the truth through Martin Logan colored glasses. ;) Have a great rest of your afternoon and weekend; I think I need to pop a cold one and reevaluate my DTs sound quality:D
Harp pint glasses! And im no ml fanboy. Search my 1500 posts and you will Find ml mentioned a handfull of times. This hobby is how i make a living also.
 
majorloser

majorloser

Moderator
Harp pint glasses! And im no ml fanboy. Search my 1500 posts and you will Find ml mentioned a handfull of times. This hobby is how i make a living also.
Yeah, but when your ML's made the trip to my house they turned me into a fanboy!

BTW- is "curve" not "cruve". Have a pint for me while I'm here stuck behind my desk :(
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
My only issue is with dt stating hz into the mid teens on their 7000 series.
It seems like the only company I can't really make fun of when it comes to their stated frequency response is Paradigm.:D
 
J

Joe Schmoe

Audioholic Ninja
Before this thread disintegrates into the usual chaos, here are my conclusions:
1)The Role claim might be possible, but there is no way to be sure.
2)The Beaks are pure snake oil, and call Totem as a whole into question (as does "borosilicate damping".)
3) Whether or not Def Techs go as low as claimed, they definitely have fantastic bass.

Now, what other far-out claims (by speaker companies) can we investigate?:D
 
B

Bloodstriker

Full Audioholic
Hmm.. did I get ripped off my my Totems????!!!! I have the whole theatre package!
 
G

gus6464

Audioholic Samurai
Hmm.. did I get ripped off my my Totems????!!!! I have the whole theatre package!
Totem makes some good sounding speakers. In the $1000 tower range the Arro are my favorite speaker. All companies have BS claims no matter what market you are in. It's called marketing and some are better at it than others.

Take for example Macs and Apple which my wife loves. She has always had a mac and will forever own one. Does she really buy into their marketing BS? No, since I work in the field so I let her know the facts. But it still doesn't change the fact that they make good speedy machines that can take a beating, which is more I can say for the Acers, Dells, and HPs I have owned in the past. She got me to buy a macbook for work usage and I must say I have been very happy with it. I take that thing everywhere and don't really treat it the best but it has kept on going after 2 years unlike other laptops I've owned. I will always have a PC in the house as my main desktop but I will probably now always own a mac for a laptop.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Hmm.. did I get ripped off my my Totems????!!!! I have the whole theatre package!
NO! Totem makes excellent speakers but they like to sprinkle a little snake oil in their sales pitch. Just ignore and enjoy.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Yeah. Denon makes the $500 D-Link cable, but Denon is an awesome company regardless.:D

Just because we don't agree or like some of the advertisements, marketing, or public relation tactics of these companies (any companies) does not mean that their speakers (or other components) are bad.

I hate the way DefTech states their frequency response WITHOUT the +/-3dB tolerance. I won't defend that.:D

But my ears know that my speakers sound awesome to me. That's the key.

We have to judge the speakers by how they sound, not by what the companies claim or DON'T claim.:D
 
dorokusai

dorokusai

Full Audioholic
The bar standard of snake oil.... Machina Dynamica. They are "local" to me and while the Nimbus stand is really cool in person, the rest of the products are 100% straightjacket approved.

Mark
Polk Audio CS
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Before this thread disintegrates into the usual chaos, here are my conclusions:
1)The Role claim might be possible, but there is no way to be sure.
2)The Beaks are pure snake oil, and call Totem as a whole into question (as does "borosilicate damping".)
3) Whether or not Def Techs go as low as claimed, they definitely have fantastic bass.

Now, what other far-out claims (by speaker companies) can we investigate?:D
The beaks don't call into queestion Totem as a whole. Only you do. And I can assure you that between Def Tech and Totem, Totem is the better of the two speakers. Before judging a speaker, listen to it 1st. Then draw your conclusions.
 
J

Joe Schmoe

Audioholic Ninja
The bar standard of snake oil.... Machina Dynamica. They are "local" to me and while the Nimbus stand is really cool in person, the rest of the products are 100% straightjacket approved.

Mark
Polk Audio CS
Oh, yes. They are hilarious. In fact, they are so incredibly far-fetched that I suspect them of being some sort of "conceptual art" project, or maybe a Candid Camera style joke.
 
J

Joe Schmoe

Audioholic Ninja
The beaks don't call into queestion Totem as a whole. Only you do. And I can assure you that between Def Tech and Totem, Totem is the better of the two speakers. Before judging a speaker, listen to it 1st. Then draw your conclusions.
I can't directly comment on the sound of Totems, as I have never had an opportunity to audition them (no dealers within 200 miles.) You must admit, however, that the Beaks, the borosilicate damping, and the little yellow dots all conspire to make them appear to be a snake oil company.

By all accounts, however, they are great sounding speakers. (They would have to be truly excellent to outperform Def Techs, of course.)
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Don't lump borosilicate with snake oil. There's a reason why Totem uses this instead of the regular acoustic insulation found in other speakers.

Here's what borosilicate is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borosilicate_glass

This is the patent on its use;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borosilicate_glass
From this page;


SUMMARY OF THE INVENTION

The present invention, according to one embodiment, is directed to a device or structure for acoustically controlling and attenuating various frequencies of sound, comprising a composite multiple layer acoustical absorbing coating formed of separate and distinct layers which are applied to the surface of a substrate or structure in proper sequence to each other. Usually, although not necessarily, the first layer to be applied can be a priming coat which is directly disposed on the surface of a substrate to provide a base to which the second acoustical coat can be better bonded to a particular substrate structure. The following coat is thereafter applied to the bonding primer coat as a second sound absorbing coat, which is designed to substantially absorb sound waves impinging thereon and which are transmitted through an adjacent sound transmitting medium. Such second coat can consist of an elastomer matrix, for example, of a mixture of a silicone or other elastomer, as described more fully below, and inorganic filler particles, e.g. a metal powder, such as, for example, tungsten, iron oxide, or similar metal powders. It is to be noted that various combinations of metals can also be incorporated within the elastomer depending on the acoustical problems to be solved. Hence, when the second coating is prepared for a particular application, the elastic modulus of the base elastomer and its frequency-temperature characteristics are selected from a mathematical model of the composite such that when loaded with the predetermined filler or loading material, as described more fully below, an effective sound absorbing coat is formed for the specified frequency range and temperature environment to which the structure is to be exposed. The third coating can be comprised of various materials such as a polymeric material in the form of an elastomer or resin, which may or may not include inorganic filler particles, such as powered metal or metals, or siliceous powders, to form an impedance matching coating to match approximately, or as closely as possible, the impedance of the absorber coat to that of the surrounding sound transmitting medium. Thus, the outer impedance matching layer provides a means to substantially eliminate sound reflection from the outermost surface of the composite coating by establishing an extremely low reflection coefficient.

As previously noted, where one of the layers or coatings, e.g. the sound absorber coating, of the combination of sound absorber coating and impedance matching coating, of which the composite coating essentially consists, can be suitably adhesively bonded to the substrate surface without requiring application of a primer coat to such surface, such latter coat can be omitted. On the other hand, such primer or bonding coat, if necessary, can be used to bond the adjacent sound absorber and impedance matching coatings where the elastomeric or polymeric matrix of such coatings do not have sufficient adherence to each other. Further, where the substrate and the sound transmitting medium are the same common material, as for example where the substrate and the sound transmitting medium is one and the same glass body, as in the delay line application hereinafter described, the impedance matching coat can be applied as the interior coating adjacent to the surface of the glass substrate and the absorber coat is applied as the outer coat over the impedance matching coat, the latter coating functioning to substantially eliminate any sound reflection from the absorber coat back into the glass sound transmitting medium.

Hence it will be understood that the invention basically contemplates and comprises a composite coating for substantially completely absorbing sound at various frequencies, on a substrate, such composite coating being formed of two coatings, an impedance matching coat over a sound absorbing coat, both as above described, or a sound absorbing coat over an impedance matching coat. The present invention is also directed to the method for applying the composite coating to a substrate.

More specifically, according to one embodiment of the invention, the first coat can be a base bonding primer coat, e.g. of a silicone primer paint; the second coat can be a mixture of metal of siliceous powder filler in a suitable elastomer, e.g. a silicone elastomer, which is turned to the proper frequency range to provide a means for near total absorption within a predetermined frequency and temperature range, thus hiding the surface of the substrate or structure from incident sound energy. This coat prevents direct transmission through and out the other side by its attenuation coefficient. The third coat can be a preselected material such as an elastomer or resin, e.g. an epoxy resin, and which may or may not contain a metal or siliceous powder filler, and providing a means to prevent reflection from the absorbing coat by matching the impedance of said absorber to that of the surrounding acoustical transmission medium.

OBJECTS AND ADVANTAGES OF THE INVENTION

The present invention thus has for an important object the provision of an acoustical damping device which is applied to a substrate structure, in the form of a coating or paint which can have varying thicknesses, e.g. a thickness of much less than an inch, depending upon the specified frequency and temperature environment.

It is another object of the present invention to provide an acoustical composite coating or paint that is capable of being tuned to various frequencies to meet a variety of conditions for ultrasonic and sonic applications.

It is still another object of the present invention to provide a thin wall acoustical coating having a frequency range which covers both the nominal sonar frequencies (500 Hz to 5KHz) as well as the higher sonic and ultrasonic frequency noises.

It is a further object of the invention to provide a device of this character that contains as an essential element a heavily loaded elastomer using a metal or siliceous powder for the filler or loading material.

Another object is to provide a device of the character above described containing a composite coating comprising as essential components an acoustical absorbing coat and an impedance matching coat.

It is still a further object of the invention to provide a device of this character formed of a composite coating on a substrate, wherein three specific coatings are used to form the composition coating, first a bonding priming coat, second an acoustical absorbing coat, and a final coat to provide a low reflection coefficient.

Other characteristics, advantages and objects of this invention can be more readily appreciated from the following description and appended claims. When taken in conjunction with the accompanying drawings, this description forms a part of the specification wherein like references and characters designate corresponding parts in the several views.
 
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