External amplify front & center speakers Denon x3700h.

lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I have the Rotel amp already and its 27 k ohms/1.0 volt. The Denon x3700h preamp is 200 mV/47 k ohms. I have not selected a two Chanel to drive the RF7s yet
The Denon's pre-out level is not 200mV....pretty sure they rate them at a nominal 1.0V for pre-outs but can do 2V well enough.....and you can review more info here https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/denon-avr-x3700h-avr-review.15031/

That the Rotel has a sensitivity of 1V is good, tho, shouldn't be an issue at all.
 
P

PABZ

Audioholic Intern
Great! That helps a lot. I will use that sensitivity spec to help select an amp.
 
P

PABZ

Audioholic Intern
I have an opportunity to purchase another Rotel model RB 990BX with following specs:
Power output: 200 watts per channel into 8Ω (stereo)

Frequency response: 4Hz to 100kHz

Total harmonic distortion: 0.03%

Damping factor: 1000

Input sensitivity: 1V

Signal to noise ratio: 120dB

it Appears to have very good specs (along the lines of my current mid grade equipment) and would just fit in my budget. ……
 
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PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Well, hmmm, you are using 4 heights. And you have pre-outs for height 1 and height 2. But I believe one of those height pre-outs are the mandatory pre-outs you would need to biamp your fronts. If you try just splitting the front pre-outs with y-cables to allow the external amp use of four channels then you likely would NOT have enough signal to allow the 4 rotel amps to work. If the 3700h isn’t used as the manual states then you will not get the proper signal sent to the proper speaker and room correction and codecs will not work. So I do not think you will be able to bi-amp. Maybe someone else might know a way?


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That is not correct. If he wants to bi-amp the fronts with an external amp he should use splitters. The method you described is for using the internal power amps only and even in that case, the AVR assign feature would effectively be using "splitters", just that it would be done internally via a multiplexing switch.

You have a point about "not getting the proper signal" but that would only be a concern if:

a) the power amp's internal impedance is on the low side (like less than 10 kOhms)
b) the power amp has relatively lower gain such as below 26-27 dB
c) need pre out to be relatively high such as >2 V in order to drive the power amp to its rated output and beyond

The above are interrelated, we won't know if his AVR is a good match for biamping with his Rotel amp without knowing the model number/specs of the amp, and his power requirements for his set up and listening habit (max. spl).
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I have an opportunity to purchase another Rotel model RB 990BX with following specs:
Power output: 200 watts per channel into 8Ω (stereo)

Frequency response: 4Hz to 100kHz

Total harmonic distortion: 0.03%

Damping factor: 1000

Input sensitivity: 1V

Signal to noise ratio: 120dB

it Appears to have very good specs (along the lines of my current mid grade equipment) and would just fit in my budget. ……
As I mentioned in post#25, without knowing which power amp you have, your question about using it with your AVR to bi-amp cannot be fully addressed. If it is the Rotel RB990BX that has input impedance of 33 kOhms and input sensitivity of 1 V, it is an excellent match! Use splitters with no fear of losing any performance.

I am only commenting on the technical part, as for sound quality, most likely there will be no sonic improvement at all.
 
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PABZ

Audioholic Intern
Will I hear any improvement in sound (over the Denon x3700h) from the RF7s if I external amp with the above mentioned Rotel 200w amp or is it a wash?
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
Will I hear any improvement in sound (over the Denon x3700h) from the RF7s if I external amp with the above mentioned Rotel 200w amp or is it a wash?
You already have the Rotel amp. Why don't you try it and out for yourself if there's any audible difference. IMO, there will not be any.

Most of the time you hear an improvement in sound, it's not with the electronics but with better speakers.
 
P

PABZ

Audioholic Intern
Thanks for reply! I have a smaller 5 Channel Rotel RB 985 MKII 100wpc presently and have the opportunity to purchase the 2 Channel Rotel 990BX 200wpc. I read on spec sheets and some reviews that this more powerfull amp would bring out the sound but don’t have the ability to try it out. Is mor power driving the bigger speakers over rated?
 
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PABZ

Audioholic Intern
I listen at normal volumes normally but on movies we tend to crank it up more. All klipsch speakers on 9.2 setup except I have a SVS PB200 Pro front sub and an older Paradigm 15” rear sub.
 
P

PABZ

Audioholic Intern
Thanks for pointing out that article. I Have a much better understanding of the differences now. so many amplifier articles use such colorful words explaining how great they reproduce sound and how important the reserve power is. It is very confusing for a beginner. I thought the Denon x3700h had great specs, then after much reading was led to believe that using a separate more powerful (expensive) amp woul make the speakers sound much better. Now I don’t know if I stick with what I have in the Denon or to continue to look for a more powerful clean amp for my RF7s??
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Thanks for pointing out that article. I Have a much better understanding of the differences now. so many amplifier articles use such colorful words explaining how great they reproduce sound and how important the reserve power is. It is very confusing for a beginner. I thought the Denon x3700h had great specs, then after much reading was led to believe that using a separate more powerful (expensive) amp woul make the speakers sound much better. Now I don’t know if I stick with what I have in the Denon or to continue to look for a more powerful clean amp for my RF7s??
Based on scientific facts, a more powerful amplifier can only make your speakers sound better (all else being equal) if a) the speakers can take advantage of the "more powerful" and b) the listening actually call on that "more power". It is simple, if say your AVR never get pushed to within less than 50% of its output power limit under the most demanding moment, that is during the highest peak spl you have ever listen to, then how is a 1,000 W amp going to help?

So the first rule should be to get a good estimate of your actual power requirement and compare that to the rated output of the AVR, that is about 100 WPC, two channels driven into 8 ohms, or 70 W five channel driven simultaneously.
 
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PABZ

Audioholic Intern
That makes sense to me. The Denon provides 105wpc 2ch driven. I have 9 ch in use all klipsch with 2x RF7 fronts @ 250/1000w, 2x RP402S surrounds @ 75/300w, 4x CDT-5800-C II ceiling height @ 50/200w and 1x RP450c center @ 150/600w. When reading I hear many times over that the rated 105APC is 2 ch driven and as you add more speakers the amp pushes less power? So I thought putting the RF7S on a bigger amp would free up the Denon to better power the other 7 channels? It appears that many people do this. I thought I had it figured out!!!
 
G

Golfx

Senior Audioholic
That makes sense to me. The Denon provides 105wpc 2ch driven. I have 9 ch in use all klipsch with 2x RF7 fronts @ 250/1000w, 2x RP402S surrounds @ 75/300w, 4x CDT-5800-C II ceiling height @ 50/200w and 1x RP450c center @ 150/600w. When reading I hear many times over that the rated 105APC is 2 ch driven and as you add more speakers the amp pushes less power? So I thought putting the RF7S on a bigger amp would free up the Denon to better power the other 7 channels? It appears that many people do this. I thought I had it figured out!!!
For me, part of the fun of upgrading and buying new equipment is ALL the learning that takes place along the way to making your decisions. Then there is even more learning that has to take place when you set it up. It is addictive. At least to me.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
P

PABZ

Audioholic Intern
You are sooo right! I have Ben upgrading for a while and it is addictive!! And, I am certainly learning more as I go!!
 
P

PABZ

Audioholic Intern
So here is a response i read from another post with the same question I was asking about external amping fronts and why I was leaning this way….

If your system has front speakers that can handle a lot more power than the effects speakers and your room is large enough the higher quality amp will be better sounding even if the power is the same as the receiver. Why?
The power of a surround receiver usually goes down drastically when all channels are playing loud. A 100 watt x 7 receiver might only produce 40-60 watts when the system is working hard. Separate power amps (even multi-channel ones) don't decrease in power.
A good power amp will usually sound better than the ones in surround receivers. Limited space for power supplies. Lack of high current to drive more difficult loads. Quality of sound is usually low priority with the makers. Features usually take precedence. Just so long as they reach the magic 100 watts on paper what happens in the real world doesn't matter because it's expensive to correct it.
Theoretically all the amp channels should sound the same. In real life the audio from the effects speakers is usually different than the fronts anyway. If you had identical speakers all around they would still sound very different because of placement and your listening position. This makes the amp not matching unimportant usually. If you have good speakers you can hear the center channel amp not matching the L/R fronts.
Using a receiver and adding a power amp for the fronts only is a good way to save some money. Preamp processors start higher than mid level receivers. A 7-11 channel amp will cost more than a 2 or 3 channel amp and there will be a lot of wasted power since most of the channels will be more than needed.
All receivers have variable preamp outputs. The different amounts of power are matched when you go through the setup procedure just as the efficiency and placement of the speakers is compensated forl
 
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PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
So here is a response i read from another post with the same question I was asking about external amping fronts and why I was leaning this way….

If your system has front speakers that can handle a lot more power than the effects speakers and your room is large enough the higher quality amp will be better sounding even if the power is the same as the receiver. Why?
The power of a surround receiver usually goes down drastically when all channels are playing loud. A 100 watt x 7 receiver might only produce 40-60 watts when the system is working hard. Separate power amps (even multi-channel ones) don't decrease in power.
A good power amp will usually sound better than the ones in surround receivers. Limited space for power supplies. Lack of high current to drive more difficult loads. Quality of sound is usually low priority with the makers. Features usually take precedence. Just so long as they reach the magic 100 watts on paper what happens in the real world doesn't matter because it's expensive to correct it.
Theoretically all the amp channels should sound the same. In real life the audio from the effects speakers is usually different than the fronts anyway. If you had identical speakers all around they would still sound very different because of placement and your listening position. This makes the amp not matching unimportant usually. If you have good speakers you can hear the center channel amp not matching the L/R fronts.
Using a receiver and adding a power amp for the fronts only is a good way to save some money. Preamp processors start higher than mid level receivers. A 7-11 channel amp will cost more than a 2 or 3 channel amp and there will be a lot of wasted power since most of the channels will be more than needed.
All receivers have variable preamp outputs. The different amounts of power are matched when you go through the setup procedure just as the efficiency and placement of the speakers is compensated forl
That seems like a generic response so by nature it is going to be mostly correct other than he got some minor things wrong. For example, he said "all receivers have variable preamp outputs, that is not correct. Also, he said separate power amps even multichannel ones don't decrease in power...I suppose he meant if all channels are driven simultaneously, and if so, that is not always the case.

Anyway, I thought your original questions have been dealt with, is there still some that you felt not answered yet? Again, to avoid generalizing, would you mind using one of those linked online calculator to figure out your actual "power" requirements? Once you get that figured out, it would be relatively easy to give you a more definitive answer to any power requirement related questions that you may still have.

Keep in mind that to gain 3 dB more spl, you will need 2X the "power", so a 200 W power amp will only let you crank the volume up by 3 dB higher without increased distortions, all else being equal. On the other hand, if you only need 25 W (8 ohms or 4 ohms) average, 50 W peak under the most demanding conditions then adding an 200 W or 500 W amps is not going to give you "better" sound quality because the internal amps happened to measure better than many separate power amps in THD+N, IMD, FR, SNR, DR, linearity etc..

There are the sayings, that "people don't realize how little power they actually need..", "people don't realize their amps may be clipping much more often then they know...", or "you can't have too much power.." All of them could be true, it depends on the context, and the specific case.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Do yourself a favor and ignore the wattage ratings for max input the speakers have in their specs. Generally not much use nor relevant to real world use, more a warning as to when bad things may begin to happen if fed that much power. Sensitivity of the speakers is far more useful (and when using an spl calculator like Peng mentioned, I'd take 4-5 dB off the Klipsch sensitivity spec, they tend to use an in-room "equivalent" rather than an anechoic spec, and has been shown as such in 3rd party tests).
 
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PABZ

Audioholic Intern
Ok confusion set back in!! I am still a little hung up on the 105w receivers power pushing 9 speakers with the large RF7S 250/1000w rating and hearing that an amp should be 1.5 as powerful as the rms. So I went to the on line calculators and confusion set back in!! What speaker specs do I use for the calculation?? Do I average the totals? Use lowest or highest?? Same question for sensitivities. I have 9 Klipsch speakers, ranging from 4 ceiling @ 50rms/200peak; to the front RF7 @ 250rms/1000peak with sensitivites from 93 to 102? Second question, does it matter much if my theater is a rectangle 15x20 with one side completely open to another 15x20 kitchen vaulted ceiling long ways (all speakers set up in the one side long ways). Listening position is 16.8’ from fronts centered against back wall. Seems like a difficult room but audessy has it sounding pretty good! The atmos effects do come through nicely. cant do much about the living space but can afford some more power if necessary. Again, we watch movies 4/5 times a week and listen at exciting sound levels (svs PB1200pro does handle the low frequencies). I Appreciate that you all are still helping me through this!!
 

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