Erin's Audio Corner (my new review YouTube channel/website)

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shadyJ

Speaker of the House
@KEW - How did the Canton Ceramic, RAAL, and Focal Be sound to your ears? Did you have a favorite?
BTW what are you using for speakers now that you loaned out all of these? :D
A lot of the sound of these tweeters is determined by other things like mostly the crossover and to a lesser extent the enclosure. I would be very hesitant to say that tweeter A is better than tweeter B merely from their implementation in some speaker. The overall design will have more to do with the sound even within the tweeter's bandwidth.
 
VMPS-TIII

VMPS-TIII

Full Audioholic
A lot of the sound of these tweeters is determined by other things like mostly the crossover and to a lesser extent the enclosure. I would be very hesitant to say that tweeter A is better than tweeter B merely from their implementation in some speaker. The overall design will have more to do with the sound even within the tweeter's bandwidth.
Tweeter A is $50 and Tweeter B is $423 and the BE isn't cheap either. The RAAL better have some advantage over Ceramic Aluminum or it's going to be a difficult value proposition. :)
 
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shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Tweeter A is $50 and Tweeter B is $423 and the BE isn't cheap either. The RAAL better have some advantage over Ceramic Aluminum or it's going to be a difficult value proposition. :)
Price isn't always indicative of performance. There are plenty examples of cheap tweeters that outperform far more expensive designs. It depends on how it is used as well. I can't seem to find it at the moment, but Vance Dickenson wrote an article that compared conventional dome speakers to expensive exotic designs and materials and found it was rarely the case that the expensive materials outperformed the regular ones.
 
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Beave

Senior Audioholic
Tweeter A is $50 and Tweeter B is $423 and the BE isn't cheap either. The RAAL better have some advantage over Ceramic Aluminum or it's going to be a difficult value proposition. :)
Tweeter B is $423? Which one is that?!?!?
 
everettT

everettT

Audioholic Ninja
Tweeter B is $423? Which one is that?!?!?
I'm assuming he is referring to the RAAL, but that price is for the 70-10, not the 64-10 which is around $120 cheaper (still not cheap)
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
Price isn't always indicative of performance. There are plenty examples of cheap tweeters that outperform far more expensive designs. It depends on how it is used as well. I can't seem to find it at the moment, but Vance Dickenson wrote an article that compared conventional dome speakers to expensive exotic designs and materials and found it was rarely the case that the expensive materials outperformed the regular ones.
I agree it's more about implementation than material, but in the right hands there are some measurable differences (flatter fr, faster decay times) between the RAALs and the NrT tweeters used in the Sierra towers at Ascend. The NrT is neither Be nor ceramic but by all accounts very good also.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
I'm assuming he is referring to the RAAL, but that price is for the 70-10, not the 64-10 which is around $120 cheaper (still not cheap)
Yup. You can replace the ribbon element in the 70-20 for about $70 + labor + shipping tho. The 64-10 you have to replace the whole tweet.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
@KEW - How did the Canton Ceramic, RAAL, and Focal Be sound to your ears? Did you have a favorite?
BTW what are you using for speakers now that you loaned out all of these? :D
I think the three of these are the best tweeters I have heard (and I agree with ShadyJ's comment, but given good crossover design and intelligent implementation, it does beg the question of which you would select if you were a designer and had access).
The liability (if you can call it that) of the Ceramic is it is the only one that uses a wave guide. For me, in my room, I found comparing the Canton to the RAAL in the BMR that I preferred the BMR about 70/30%! However, be clear, 30% of the time I actually preferred the Canton! If I was a sales guy and could chose the music, I think I could control which speaker you bought by selecting the content that favored one over the other! I feel like the Focal and the RAAL (neither uses a waveguide) are much more similar in nature. I feel that I can pick up more (very) subtle nuances of music with the Focal Twin6Be but I have a hard time believing that the RAAL does not have as much detail, I would venture that it might be more a matter of the ability to more precisely tune the Twin6Be's crossover (which is an active design). But we are talking slight difference on the count.
But at the end of the day, this is all my subjective ramblings. I am very interested in what differences show up when Erin measures these speakers! I know that I am subject to bias. I might well believe I hear more nuance with the Focals simply because I know they are very high quality studio monitors and well respected by recording engineers! The influence of bias is a huge factor when the speakers are this close in performance (less so, if I was comparing something like Pioneer BS22 to the BMR's where the differences will "slap me in the face").
I am also inclined to believe that the Canton is a little tipped up on the high end, but that might be an aspect of the waveguide!?
Like I say, I am anxious to see Erin's measurements so I can hopefully relate my experiences to his measurements or realize where bias has played a role.

As far as great speakers I can listen to while Erin has these, I have Martin-Logan Vista electrostatics (currently in the BR), Canton Vento 876 (which are currently in the LR), and Focal Solo6 Be.
However, when I am not actually listening to music, I am most often listening simply to my JBL LSR305's (in the LR), RBH Emptek 41B (in the BR), Amazon View (in the kitchen), and Vento 820.2 (in the office) because I am lazy and saying "Alexa play Pandora Everywhere" is easy and I can control it from whatever room I am in! (I have formed an "Everywhere" group using the Alexa app)
 
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everettT

everettT

Audioholic Ninja
I think the three of these are the best tweeters I have heard (and I agree with ShadyJ's comment, but given good crossover design and intelligent implementation, it does beg the question of which you would select if you were a designer and had access).
The liability (if you can call it that) of the Ceramic is it is the only one that uses a wave guide. For me, in my room, I found comparing the Canton to the RAAL in the BMR that I preferred the BMR about 70/30%! However, be clear, 30% of the time I actually preferred the Canton! If I was a sales guy and could chose the music, I think I could control which speaker you bought by selecting the content that favored one over the other! I feel like the Focal and the RAAL (neither uses a waveguide) are much more similar in nature. I feel that I can pick up more (very) subtle nuances of music with the Focal Twin6Be but I have a hard time believing that the RAAL does not have as much detail, I would venture that it might be more a matter of the ability to more precisely tune the Twin6Be's crossover (which is an active design). But we are talking slight difference on the count.
But at the end of the day, this is all my subjective ramblings. I am very interested in what differences show up when Erin measures these speakers! I know that I am subject to bias. I might well believe I hear more nuance with the Focals simply because I know they are very high quality studio monitors and well respected by recording engineers! The influence of bias is a huge factor when the speakers are this close in performance (less so, if I was comparing something like Pioneer BS22 to the BMR's where the differences will "slap me in the face").
I am also inclined to believe that the Canton is a little tipped up on the high end, but that might be an aspect of the waveguide!?
Like I say, I am anxious to see Erin's measurements so I can hopefully relate my experiences to his measurements or realize where bias has played a role.

As far as great speakers I can listen to while Erin has these, I have Martin-Logan Vista electrostatics (currently in the BR), Canton Vento 876 (which are currently in the LR), and Focal Solo6 Be.
However, when I am not actually listening to music, I am most often listening simply to my JBL LSR305's (in the LR), RBH Emptek 41B (in the BR), Amazon View (in the kitchen), and Vento 820.2 (in the office) because I am lazy and saying "Alexa play Pandora Everywhere" is easy and I can control it from whatever room I am in! (I have formed an "Everywhere" group using the Alexa app)
I feel the same way with the Satori Beryllium and the RAAL. The SB Acoustics aluminium/ceramic dome has been very well received. I don't think I've ever heard what Canton is using, I don't even know who makes theirs.
 
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VMPS-TIII

VMPS-TIII

Full Audioholic
As far as great speakers I can listen to while Erin has these, I have Martin-Logan Vista electrostatics (currently in the BR), Canton Vento 876 (which are currently in the LR), and Focal Solo6 Be.
However, when I am not actually listening to music, I am most often listening simply to my JBL LSR305's (in the LR), RBH Emptek 41B (in the BR), Amazon View (in the kitchen), and Vento 820.2 (in the office) because I am lazy and saying "Alexa play Pandora Everywhere" is easy and I can control it from whatever room I am in! (I have formed an "Everywhere" group using the Alexa app)
Go KEW, you are definitely the bookshelf speaker taster...
Now, I understand why you have 30 pairs. :)
 
B

Beave

Senior Audioholic
I'm assuming he is referring to the RAAL, but that price is for the 70-10, not the 64-10 which is around $120 cheaper (still not cheap)
So the RAAL 64-10 tweeters are $300 each?
 
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Beave

Senior Audioholic
@D Murphy , any comments on the price of the 64-10 tweeter?

We've gone from $423 each to $300 each to now $200 each.

At this rate, they'll be free by Monday. :p
 
everettT

everettT

Audioholic Ninja
@D Murphy , any comments on the price of the 64-10 tweeter?

We've gone from $423 each to $300 each to now $200 each.

At this rate, they'll be free by Monday. :p
The $300 less than the 70-10d pair is what I've heard twice but trying to extrapolate that from the BMR kit price seems off.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Somewhere right around, IIRC from PE forum a few years ago. This one tue one but has them at $200 ea.
View attachment 38474
This means the original ones were $700/pr, but that price was from 6 years ago, I suspect exchange rates and/or inflation has had some impact.
Until we get better information, I'd go with the known current Madison price of $428 (or $856/pr) less $300/pr, so $556/pr as a good guess.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Ninja
I had been quoted, upon asking an acquaintance in the biz, whom is known for using such drivers, that they are under $100 ea. (Raal 64-10)
 

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