Epik Empire or SVS PB12 Plus

Rippyman

Rippyman

Audioholic
I'm certain this has been brought up before, but I'm curious to know if there is a user on these boards who has owned both subs and can offer a comparison of the two?

Epik Empire has a sale on their sub right now $799 which seems like a damn good deal.

I'm curious to know if its worth the savings vs the SVS PB12-Plus?

Thanks,

B
 
its phillip

its phillip

Audioholic Ninja
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
The Plus will not compare with the Empire in terms of output. I haven't heard the current Plus, but have heard basically every previous version and I'd have to say the Empire is the way to go in this case. IIRC, the shipping is a flat rate because of the weight, and it is not cheap. Mine was delivered on a pallet.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Yes, at the very bottom, the Plus will likely have an advantage. My Tempest did too, but I still enjoy the Empire more :)
 
N

Nuance AH

Audioholic General
What's the difference between the Plus and the Plus DSP that AH tested? The latter has more output than the Empire between 20 and 30Hz.

 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
More output down low, like I mentioned (sealed vs vented), but if as the frequency rises, you can see that the Empire's rises quite a bit. If he is talking about buying a current sub, then the DSP is what he would end up with; I don't think there is a non-DSP version anymore.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Certainly not a bad choice either way. I happen to prefer the SVS PB12-Plus myself because I prefer its more linear and flat response all the way down to 20Hz. I also far prefer the current SVS Sledge amps, which have several features not offered on the Epik amps. The Sledge amps are a cut above almost any other subwoofer amp, IMO.

There's a price differential though and that makes the decision tougher. What sort of room size are you dealing with?
 
N

Nuance AH

Audioholic General
If he is talking about buying a current sub, then the DSP is what he would end up with; I don't think there is a non-DSP version anymore.
Thanks - that makes sense.

If price is not really a factor, SVS.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
From that list it appears Rythmic wins the race?

Or is there more to it then just numbers?

My room is basically 16x16x9

I've posted my HT build on here.
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/pros-joes-systems-gallery/74678-my-klipsch-reference-series-home-theater-build.html
There is indeed more to it than just peak output numbers.

Those CEA2010 numbers basically say, how loud can you blast a tone at a certain frequency for a very short amount of time with less than a certain amount of total harmonic distortion. That THD number is meant to be "inaudible" although the limits are somewhat debatable.

So distortion is one factor. For example, the Rythmik FV15HP can produce higher output at frequencies above 20Hz vs. the SVS PB13-Ultra, but the FV15HP is doing so with higher distortion than the PB13-Ultra (which stays ridiculously low in distortion). Now, the FV15HP's results are still a passing THD result under CEA2010 specs, so that higher distortion is still said to be inaudible. But it's right up against the distortion limits, whereas the PB13-Ultra's distortion figures are way below the limit. Never-the-less, you supposedly won't hear the higher distortion - we do suck pretty bad at hearing bass as humans :p

There's a lot more than just peak output though. There is sustained output, which is much more difficult to produce since the voice coil heats up big time and doesn't have a gap in the sound to cool down. There is linear power response, which looks at whether the frequency response has the same shape regardless of how loud things are being played. For example, a sub might have a nice, flat frequency response graph when it is playing at 90dB, but if you turn the volume up to 100dB, you might see it play flat down to 30Hz and then slope downward so that the output at 20Hz is still only 90dB. This is a very common circumstance where a sub basically runs out of output capability at certain frequencies at a certain point and never gets any louder, even while higher frequencies continue to get louder as you turn up the volume. And there is transient response, which is how quickly the sound of the sub starts or stops when the signal tells it to. This is a big deal. This is what makes a sub sound "tight" or "flabby" (in addition to room interaction, which also plays a huge role in the sound).

Basically, when it comes to one sub sounding "better" than another, it's pretty much all about three things: extension, output and transient response. And all of those will be limited by distortion and power response.

SVSound's current lineup of subs get a lot of well-deserved praise because they produce a very flat frequency response right down to 20Hz. That response STAYS flat no matter how loud you turn up the volume. And the distortion stays low no matter how loud you turn up the volume. They do have their output limits, of course. But if you turn the volume up beyond what the SVS sub can play, it simply refuses to play any louder - there is no additional distortion, distress or any risk to the safety of the driver and no degradation to the sound quality. Transient response is tight due to high quality drivers and rock solid control over those drivers by the amps. So they're just good subs all around, but you do pay a little bit of a premium for that performance.

Rythmik's subs are very similar. Rythmik allows their subs to become a little bit less linear in their frequency response when you crank the volume to maximum levels. If they limited the FV15HP so that it remains very linear all the way down to 20Hz no matter how loud you crank it, they would essentially be limiting the max output to the max output of the sub at 20Hz alone, which is a bit lower than something like the PB13-Ultra. But instead, Rythmik allows the FV15HP to keep playing louder at frequencies above 20Hz. So if you crankt the volume up to its maximum, the frequency response is no longer perfectly flat and linear. It's curved now and slopes downward towards 20Hz. But that's a perfectly fine design choice! It means that in the bass region where most of the bass in music is found (around 40Hz and higher), the FV15HP is capable of more output and headroom.

So if you compare the FV15HP and the PB13-Ultra, the PB13-Ultra has a tiny bit more extension (just barely), the PB13-Ultra also has more linear power response - keeping the frequency response very flat no matter how loud you crank it. The FV15HP though is capable of more output at all the frequencies above 25Hz. The power response isn't as linear and the distortion is higher. But the distortion is still inaudible supposedly (although it's right up against the limits of audibility).

Both have tight transient response thanks to high quality drivers and excellent amps and well-built cabinets. And it's VERY important to note that these ultimately small differences only show up when you are cranking these subs to their maximum output capabilities. At more sane and normal output levels, great subs like the FV15HP and PB13-Ultra will sound almost completely identical.

With a sealed sub like the Epik Empire, at the really low frequencies, the drivers have to work much harder because they have no port to enhance their low frequency output. The Empire has more driver surface area, thanks to dual 15" drivers. Epik also employs an EQ boost of the lower frequencies that they incorporate into their amps. A natural sealed sub with no EQ boost will start to roll off and slope downward starting at around 40-50Hz and it will do so with a fairly gradual 12dB/octave slope. Epik employs their EQ boost so that the frequency response remains flat pretty much down to 20Hz and then they add a filter so that it slopes downward more steeply than 12dB/octave below that point. In essence, the response of Epik's subs looks more similar to a natural ported design thanks to their EQ and filters.

The thing is, the drivers alone are doing all of the work at those low frequencies, so distortion starts to rise and the limits of output way down below 30Hz are reached sooner than a ported design would allow. So you'll see that even though there are two 15" drivers and an EQ boost being employed, the Epik cannot play as loud way down at 20Hz as the ported FV15HP (which only uses one 15" driver) or the PB13-Ultra (which uses only one 13.5" driver). And thanks to the PB13-Ultra having more amplifier power and an extremely capable driver, it can actually output louder sound at 20Hz, than either of the FV15HP or Empire, even though it has the smallest driver.

Everything's a matter of design choices and hitting price points. So you've got to decide what you're really after and more important than that, realize that the room is a full 50% of your sound system. And the room has a tremendous impact on the bass that you hear. Bass waves bounce around a room like crazy - crashing into eachother and creating all kinds of cancellations and double ups that completely alter the sound of a subwoofer in that room vs. the sound of that subwoofer out in an open field, or the sound of that subwoofer in any other room!

Starting with a subwoofer that is very linear at all output levels is often a good thing because then you know that any change away from linear is due entirely to the room and not the sub itself. It makes it relatively easy to EQ the sub for that room because - being a linear sub - you know how it will react to being EQ'd. But it isn't necessary to have a linear sub in order to get linear response! A room's acoustics will boost the lowest bass frequencies and add peaks and dips in the higher bass frequencies. A sub that slopes downward in the deepest bass might end up being very flat and linear in a room thanks to "room gain" and the way the room boosts the lowest bass. So it often turns out that a sub that is very linear and flat all on its own requires a fair bit of EQ to make it flat and linear in a room! While a sub that has a downward sloping response all on its own actually has a flatter response in a room without any EQ applied at all!
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
From that list it appears Rythmic wins the race?

Or is there more to it then just numbers?

My room is basically 16x16x9

I've posted my HT build on here.
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/pros-joes-systems-gallery/74678-my-klipsch-reference-series-home-theater-build.html
Yes, there's more to it than numbers, but with subs, numbers do tell you quite a bit too, providing you know what you're looking at. Having always owned vented subs, I was skeptical of the Empire's ability to have good output comparatively, due to it being sealed. My previous sub was pretty hefty too, a 15" that would be closer to an SVS Ultra. Having both of them in my room, I found that I liked the cleaner sound of the Empire compared to my Tempest even though the extension of the Tempest far exceeded the Empire. So I gave up some of that rumble down low that is so fun, but the cleaner output up top lends itself very well to the type of sound that is present in far more audio tracks than the deepest stuff; music in particular.

In a square room, you are going to want to have some kind of treatments or EQ, because good bass is more difficult to achieve in a square room.
 
N

Nuance AH

Audioholic General
From that list it appears Rythmic wins the race?

Or is there more to it then just numbers?

My room is basically 16x16x9

I've posted my HT build on here.
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/pros-joes-systems-gallery/74678-my-klipsch-reference-series-home-theater-build.html
The Rythmik wins output wise, yes. But there is absolutely more to it than just that, as already mentioned above. I didn't realize you were considering it, though. Now that I think about it, it is in that price range.:) Well, that changes everything...

The SVS driver tech and build quality is really hard to beat, but the Rythmik SQ and output are tops IMO, so that is a tough decision. I will say this: if you want ported those are the two I'd narrow it down to in that price range. The Epik is sealed, though, so definitely factor that into your decision making process. I think a properly designed sealed subwoofer sounds better, but YMMV and to each their own. It really depends on what your expectations are.

Bottom line, you can't really go wrong with any of those three subwoofers.

FirstReflection,

You know he's comparing the other subs to the PB12 Plus, not the PB13, right? :) And concerning the sealed subs, room gain plays a huge role and usually allows them to extend lower than a ported sub.
 
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F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
FirstReflection,

You know he's comparing the other subs to the PB12 Plus, not the PB13, right? :) And concerning the sealed subs, room gain plays a huge role and usually allows them to extend lower than a ported sub.
Yup, yup :) I brought up the PB13-Ultra comparison because the OP was referring to the FV15HP, I believe, which is more often compared to the Ultra rather than the Plus ;)

In terms of 20Hz output alone, the FV15HP and PB12-Plus are actually right about equal. If the FV15HP were limited so that its response remains completely flat the way the PB12-Plus is/does, they'd likely be extremely close to one another - the 20Hz output being the limiting factor that would reduce the output of the frequencies above if the response is being kept really flat.

The room gain does play a huge role, which, like you say, is why a sealed sub can often deliver flat frequency response down to a lower frequency than a sealed sub in room! However, it's worth noting that the Epik Empire is not your "typical" sealed sub since it has that EQ and filter that alter its response away from a non-filtered sealed sub's response. Rather than starting to slope downward at around 40Hz and doing so with a gradual 12dB/octave slope, the Empire and Legend remain quite flat down to 20Hz and then slope downward more steeply, making their response closer to that of a ported sub ;)
 
N

Nuance AH

Audioholic General
^ Exactly. It's pretty cool for a sealed subwoofer, so long as their is headroom down in those nethers. I have always wondered what my TC's could do in a ported box, though. I don't think I'd give up the low q of the sealed enclosures, though.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Yeah, the natural mechanical damping of a sealed design often means faster transient response and that "tighter" sound that sealed subs are known for. But it is a misconception that sealed subs always sound tighter or that ported subs always sound "slower".

I think a great deal of that misconception comes from what happens when a manufacturer or DIY'er keeps the cost low and just makes the most basic sort of subs possible. In that sort of scenario, the sealed sub will sound "tighter" but it won't retain linear response down to 20Hz and below around 40Hz, it won't play as loud. While the ported sub - again, assuming inexpensive parts and design - will sound "slower", but will remain linear to a lower frequency and play louder below around 40Hz.

Those seem to be the characteristics that get too-widely applied to seald subs vs. ported subs.

But a little extra money and a little extra design can change all that. Add a massively powerful amp, an extremely capable driver and a bit of EQ and a sealed sub can now play linear down to 20Hz and just as loud as a ported sub (although such extreme pressure being applied to the driver at the lowest frequencies will almost always result in higher distortion). Meanwhile, use a high quality amp, an extremely capable driver and some DSP or servo control, and a ported sub can sound every bit as "tight" as a sealed sub. Although, the group delay near the port's tuning frequency will almost always be greater than a sealed sub.

So either design choice means spending more money than the most basic and inexpensive designs. But ultimately, the performance of either design starts to converge. Where a really good sealed sub can almost always pull ahead though is when it is used in a room where the room gain is a good match for a non-EQ'd design, where the sealed sub naturally starts to roll off up around 40Hz with a gradual 12dB/octave slope. If the room's gain and that slope line up well to produce something very close to flat frequency response, you can achieve greater extension below 20Hz than even a very good ported sub, and you can also avoid that longer group delay near the port's tuning frequency (although our ability to hear that group delay at such a low frequency is really limited; same can be said about higher distortion way down low too though ;) ).

But knowing whether the room's gain and the natural roll off of an un-EQ'd sealed sub will line up nicely isn't easy to predict. It pretty much comes down to trial and measurement. Meanwhile, if you have a ported sub that you know plays flat down to 20Hz, there's never any question that you'll have ample output right down to the limits of human hearing. If you measure and discover that the room's gain is making the deep bass too loud, it's a fairly easy fix to EQ. If the sealed sub's natural roll off and the room's gain do NOT line up nicely, you cannot boost the deep bass output with EQ - not at maximum output levels where the sealed sub cannot deliver more output, anyway.

So there's no "right" or "wrong" choice here. Good subs, whether they are sealed or ported, sound much more similar than different! I can understand where the too-widely applied generalizations come from. But going with a ported sub does not automatically mean giving up tight transient response. Just as going with a sealed sub does not automatically mean a lack of deep bass extension ;)
 
N

Nuance AH

Audioholic General
Yeah, the natural mechanical damping of a sealed design often means faster transient response and that "tighter" sound that sealed subs are known for. But it is a misconception that sealed subs always sound tighter or that ported subs always sound "slower".
I agree. I think the correct terminology would be "well designed subs sound more similar than not, whether ported, sealed or passive."

I think a great deal of that misconception comes from what happens when a manufacturer or DIY'er keeps the cost low and just makes the most basic sort of subs possible. In that sort of scenario, the sealed sub will sound "tighter" but it won't retain linear response down to 20Hz and below around 40Hz, it won't play as loud. While the ported sub - again, assuming inexpensive parts and design - will sound "slower", but will remain linear to a lower frequency and play louder below around 40Hz.

Those seem to be the characteristics that get too-widely applied to seald subs vs. ported subs.
Indeed. Once again, proper design is key; it's as important as the listening room IMO.

But a little extra money and a little extra design can change all that. Add a massively powerful amp, an extremely capable driver and a bit of EQ and a sealed sub can now play linear down to 20Hz and just as loud as a ported sub (although such extreme pressure being applied to the driver at the lowest frequencies will almost always result in higher distortion). Meanwhile, use a high quality amp, an extremely capable driver and some DSP or servo control, and a ported sub can sound every bit as "tight" as a sealed sub. Although, the group delay near the port's tuning frequency will almost always be greater than a sealed sub.

So either design choice means spending more money than the most basic and inexpensive designs. But ultimately, the performance of either design starts to converge. Where a really good sealed sub can almost always pull ahead though is when it is used in a room where the room gain is a good match for a non-EQ'd design, where the sealed sub naturally starts to roll off up around 40Hz with a gradual 12dB/octave slope. If the room's gain and that slope line up well to produce something very close to flat frequency response, you can achieve greater extension below 20Hz than even a very good ported sub, and you can also avoid that longer group delay near the port's tuning frequency (although our ability to hear that group delay at such a low frequency is really limited; same can be said about higher distortion way down low too though ;) ).

But knowing whether the room's gain and the natural roll off of an un-EQ'd sealed sub will line up nicely isn't easy to predict. It pretty much comes down to trial and measurement. Meanwhile, if you have a ported sub that you know plays flat down to 20Hz, there's never any question that you'll have ample output right down to the limits of human hearing. If you measure and discover that the room's gain is making the deep bass too loud, it's a fairly easy fix to EQ. If the sealed sub's natural roll off and the room's gain do NOT line up nicely, you cannot boost the deep bass output with EQ - not at maximum output levels where the sealed sub cannot deliver more output, anyway.
I'm using dual Behringer EP2500's in bridged mode, so realistically I'm supplying 1700-1800 watts to each subwoofer. I'm also very fortunate concerning room gain, as I was able to achieve a great in-room response without EQ. However, when adding the second subwoofer coupling engaged at 50Hz and the ULF bass was too hot. I played with placement but couldn't bring it down, so I ultimately applied a little PEQ with my Behringer 1124p. See the graphs below for comparison.

This is one subwoofer without EQ of any kind:


This is two subwoofers without EQ of any kind. You'll notice where coupling begins:


Finally, this is both subs with a couple PEQ filters added down low (cuts):



So there's no "right" or "wrong" choice here. Good subs, whether they are sealed or ported, sound much more similar than different! I can understand where the too-widely applied generalizations come from. But going with a ported sub does not automatically mean giving up tight transient response. Just as going with a sealed sub does not automatically mean a lack of deep bass extension ;)
Right you are sir! I think the problem is what you mentioned earlier: most DIYers only go so far, and their designs and generally considered basic. When comparing a basic sealed sub to a basic ported one, the sealed will likely always sound better because the design is bare bones. It's when a really good design is used when the two start to sound more similar than not.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Nuance, I recommend doing your measurements based on 1/10th or 1/12th of an octave smoothing, and using equal resolution for the parametric EQ. That's what Toole recommends. 1/3rd or 1/6th of an octave EQ can actually have some adverse effects on SQ, even though they're less depressing.
 
N

Nuance AH

Audioholic General
Nuance, I recommend doing your measurements based on 1/10th or 1/12th of an octave smoothing, and using equal resolution for the parametric EQ. That's what Toole recommends. 1/3rd or 1/6th of an octave EQ can actually have some adverse effects on SQ, even though they're less depressing.
Well, I added the smoothing afterwards, and I EQ'd based on no smoothing. Here's the responses with no smoothing:

One no EQ:


Two no EQ:


Two with EQ:


Sorry to derail the thread, but I'm just showing what's possible if you set up your system properly, whether you use sealed, ported or passive.
 
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