EP-500, PB-12 Plus, and UFW-12, a couple specific questions about pros and cons

[mjharris41]

Hi guys, a dear old subwoofer that I've had since college finally went to its eternal reward, and its time to pick out a new one. I was planning on replacing the whole speaker set in a few months anyway; we just finished the basement/media room and I have a couple of other home improvement projects to tackle before I can in good conscious spend 3k on speakers. But, with the recent death in the family, the timetable for the sub at least has just been moved up!

Anyway, I have a moderately sized room, just under 3000 cubic feet. The sub will be used almost exclusively with Home Theater. When we do get a new set of speakers, I'm all but sold on the Axiom Epic 60 set with the EP-500. However, now that I'm looking at replacing the sub earlier, I started thinking about some other options too, namely the SVS PB12-Plus or the UFW-12.

I've read a lot of material, and it sounds like they're all good products, but I had a couple of questions that I was hoping people could help me use to narrow the options down:


How important is equalization for "real world" performance?
The UFW-12 comes with a (reportedly) excellent eq tool, the PB12-Plus is available with paramatric eq, and the EP-500 looks like it has a more limited "trim" feature capable of providing some boost above 33Hz.

So, while in a lab the UFW-12 may be the weakest of the three options, will the robust eq feature make a significant "real world" difference? I'm more than happy to tinker with placement and do some manual tuning, but bass traps and room treatments just aren't in the cards. How important is that eq feature?

How important is extension below 20Hz?
It looks like the PB12-Plus can be tuned to go a little deeper than either the EP-500 or the UFW-12. Keeping in mind that this is almost exclusively intended for home theater, how important is that slightly lower reach?


All else being equal, I'm leaning towards the EP-500 on the assumption it will blend a little better with the Epic 60 set from Axiom. However, if the parametric eq on the UFW-12 or the extra depth of the PB12-Plus is a real advantage, I'd be happy to change my mind.

Thanks much for the help!

 

[mjharris41]

Very sorry for the duplicate post! I got an error message on the first attempt, when back and tried again, and got two threads started.

Again, sorry for the mess.

 

[AMG_Roadster]

I would suggest you not get too hung up with what equalization tools come with a given subwoofer. There are plenty of options to EQ your sub and can be purchased fro $100 and up.

From what I have seen on the board it appears that eq'ing the sub for your room is very important. Although it you have a number of placement options I believe you can eliminate some of the issues through proper placement of your sub.

 

[jcPanny]

AV123 B-Stock

Check out the B-Stock UFW-12's from AV123.com. For $750-850 you can get a beautiful real wood sub for $4-500 less than the other models. It doen't include the R-DES Eq, but you can always add that later if necessary.
While it doesn't not play as low, the sealed design of the Rocket sub is usually preferred for music vs. the ported design of the SVS and Axiom subs. There are no bad options on your short list.

 

[Sheep]

Check out the B-Stock UFW-12's from AV123.com. For $750-850 you can get a beautiful real wood sub for $4-500 less than the other models. It doen't include the R-DES Eq, but you can always add that later if necessary.
While it doesn't not play as low, the sealed design of the Rocket sub is usually preferred for music vs. the ported design of the SVS and Axiom subs. There are no bad options on your short list.

The new plus is said to have a great 40-80Hz range now. It also has a PEQ on the amp.

Just food for thought.

SheepStar

 

[craigsub]

The PB12-Plus will be more powerful below 20 Hz. Its linearity above 20 Hz (where 99.98 % of bass is located) was always its achilles heel. This was mostly noticeable in direct comparisons to other subwoofers. There is nothing based in fact that the new driver "fixes" this, this will require some side by side tests, done blind, unless you are Sheep, then a graph will do.

If you are looking for a terrific sub from 40 Hz and down, this is an excellent pick.

The EP-500 will be linear from 20 Hz to 80 Hz. It handles music and Home Theater equally well. It will shake the floor, yet deliver the finesse of a Bass Cello with aplomb. IT is also the easiest sub to place in a room.

The UFW-12 is a different animal all together. Its bass is flat to 25 Hz, and from 25 Hz and up, it equals the EP-500. For about the same price as the EP-500, you could get the UFW-12 and a Buttkicker, giving Tactile bass to 10 Hz.

I am making these statements from personal use and blind listening tests (though for SVS it was an Ultra driver, the step up from the Plus).

 

[Stone__Man]

I have no advice, but a question if i may,
I am looking the the exact models as the OP , with the exception of the

HSU-VTF3 MKII thrown into that short list as well. Craigsub or anyone else can you lend your thoughts about it in comparison to the others that would be great. the hsu is 753$ US to your door.
thanks

 

[Sheep]

I have no advice, but a question if i may,
I am looking the the exact models as the OP , with the exception of the

HSU-VTF3 MKII thrown into that short list as well. Craigsub or anyone else can you lend your thoughts about it in comparison to the others that would be great. the hsu is 753$ US to your door.
thanks

PM brian32672. He has 2 of them, and I'm sure he would help you out.

SheepStar

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

The P12-plus's real performance can be found in this professional review by Ed Mullen.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_13_1/svs-pb12-plus-subwoofer-1-2006-part-2.html

Being measured at +/- 1.5dB from 14-100hz(in 16hz mode) isn't what I would consider a major weakness. In fact, I feel it compares favorably to most other subwoofers in the same price range. I would encourage everyone to seek out professional reviews of all the subwoofers in question to learn more about their real performance capabilities.

Tom V.
SVS

 

[jakeman]

You are doing the right thing soliciting the views of people who have heard or own these subs. I own an EP500 and an SVS Ultra, and have heard the UFW-12. These are all fine subwoofers and you really can't go wrong with any of those three subs depending on your music and HT preferences.

If music was your first priority I would steer you toward the UFW-12 for that tight sealed bass sound with the EP500 also being a good alternative.

For HT both the PB-12Plus and the EP500 would work well with the EP 500 being the more articulate of the two subs oweing to its superbly flat FR to 100hz.

If you want raw high SPLs and don't listen to much music or are not as fussed about sound detail then the PB-12 Plus would make a good choice for HT applications.

If you need a sub for both music and HT the EP500 would likely the better choice on balance.

 

[silversurfer]

The P12-plus's real performance can be found in this professional review by Ed Mullen........

I would encourage everyone to seek out professional reviews of all the subwoofers in question to learn more about their real performance capabilities.

Two questions:

1. Are there other reviewers that you ever refer to?

2. Do you ever encourage listening to the subwoofers in question and have folks compare with their own ears?

Sorry if it comes off as crass, but I just don't think it is good to only advocate comparing on paper(reviews, numbers, graphs).

 

[Sheep]

You are doing the right thing soliciting the views of people who have heard or own these subs. I own an EP500 and an SVS Ultra, and have heard the UFW-12. These are all fine subwoofers and you really can't go wrong with any of those three subs depending on your music and HT preferences.

If music was your first priority I would steer you toward the UFW-12 for that tight sealed bass sound with the EP500 also being a good alternative.

For HT both the PB-12Plus and the EP500 would work well with the EP 500 being the more articulate of the two subs oweing to its superbly flat FR to 100hz.

If you want raw high SPLs and don't listen to much music or are not as fussed about sound detail then the PB-12 Plus would make a good choice for HT applications.

If you need a sub for both music and HT the EP500 would likely the better choice on balance.

It seems the SVS PB-12Plus has a flat FR to 100Hz too.

Why would you recommend the EP500 over the SVS then? Is there somthing about the SVS reaching 14 rather then 20Hz flat that makes it worse? Not to mention the SVS is cheaper and has real wood veneer options.

SheepStar

 

[craigsub]

It seems the SVS PB-12Plus has a flat FR to 100Hz too.

]

Why would you recommend the EP500 over the SVS then? Is there somthing about the SVS reaching 14 rather then 20Hz flat that makes it worse? Not to mention the SVS is cheaper and has real wood veneer options.

SheepStar

Sheep, Which of these subwoofers have you heard ?

 

[Ajax]

RE: "Professional"

I don't think getting paid for reviews automatically ensures the review is accurate or trustworthy, any more than NOT getting paid for one means it should be dismissed.

And, as for the definition of "professional" which refers to conforming to the technical and ethical standards of a profession, there seems to be a great deal of debate as to exactly what those standards are.

CEA Levels Subwoofer Playing Field with New Measurement Spec

 

[craigsub]

Jack ... Good point. How does the saying go ? "Professionals built the Titanic, and amateurs built the Ark ..."

At any rate, I cannot understand why so many people would believe a graph more than his or her own ears.

 

[Ajax]

LOL!

Most of us laymen aren't adept at reading graphs, and don't understand that graphs can be structured to make variances appear either very minor, or enormous. Unless you understand them, this can be misleading.

We all know that graphs can be useful, and can provide us with information worth considering. But, in the end, it's what we ourselves hear that should be the deciding factor, which is why so many of us recommend doing as much listening, to as many products, as possible. It's very difficult to provide yourself with what you want, until you know what you want.

 

[jakeman]

Why would you recommend the EP500 over the SVS then?

Because to my ears in my HT and to the ears of participants in a recent listening test, the EP500 sounds better than the SVS sub. Graphs are secondary to listening but when I say superbly flat I mean this DSP controlled linearity compared to the humped declining response in that SVS chart.

If I were the OP I would take advantage of the shipping policies of those three companies, order all three and listen to them for a couple of weeks and then return the pair you don't want. That way you will know what works best in your personal space.

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

Listening tests are great, but they can be full of bias and are always subject to subjective opinion. Everyone in this thread could audition the same subwoofer, with half of us thinking..."this has no extension at all", and the other half thinking..."this went REALLY deep". Then you can all argue about it forever.

What is proven? Simply that half the people don't know much about the subject matter. Which half? No one will know, but you can argue about it for a long time..

Measure the subwoofer and there is no doubt how deep it goes. A microphone doesn't have human bias or agendas...it just measures the performance of the subwoofer/speaker.

Tom V.
SVS

 

[Stone__Man]

Listening tests are great, but they can be full of bias and are always subject to subjective opinion. Everyone in this thread could audition the same subwoofer, with half of us thinking..."this has no extension at all", and the other half thinking..."this went REALLY deep". Then you can all argue about it forever.

What is proven? Simply that half the people don't know much about the subject matter. Which half? No one will know, but you can argue about it for a long time..

Measure the subwoofer and there is no doubt how deep it goes. A microphone doesn't have human bias or agendas...it just measures the performance of the subwoofer/speaker.

Tom V.
SVS

I don't know s**t from applebutter but I'll agree with that.

DISCLAIMER: Everyone does NOT reccomend what they have/sell/represent. Some give VERY VERY insightful and helpful info .... So don't chew my leg off, chew on this -->

and I'd say a double blind test between 2 or more products is the ONLY way to even subjectively give one's own view for that matter. Most everyone will say the product that they have bought or represent in some way or another is best, most times not having even heard the other product. Its human nature , plain and simple.

when I ask questions I take all information in, but I also do my best to see if the person has an interest OTHER than mine at heart. i.e. own one, sell them. Not that this will help, but I hope its understood. ALWAYS consider the source. If you don't believe it/me, try going to ANY makers forum and search for answers as to what is the best "anything" and the vast majority will say the product's of who's forum you are on, human nature.

That is why I have asked my 3000$ speaker question in more than one place, to try and get input form people with the most varied 'personal reasoning' for liking/reccomending one product or the other. pay attention to the "gear" in many sigs that you see and often it'll match exactly what the reccomend you get. Let's take it one step further, go to any makers forum and even amoungst their members the majority cannot agree what is the best for YOU, or even the best in that makers line for you, why? see above again, we humans telling others that what WE have is the best, makes us feel better about our own purchase decisions, a justification of sorts. stupid humans anyhow! LOL

 

[craigsub]

Interesting point of view, Mr. Vodhanel. I am curious, though. How exactly does a blind listening test which is followed by measurements fall under your definition of a "biased" test ?

Based on previous conversations with you and others, this concept seems to be too complicated for some people to understand. Here is how this works ....

1. A moderator places the two subwoofers in a nearfield position, in order to reduce room effect to a minimum.

2. The moderator level matches the two subwoofers

3. Next, the panel (anywhere from one to 8 people, typically) listens to the two subwoofers using a wide variety of material. At no time do you know which subwoofer is which. You have to make notes, and pick which, to your ears, sounds the best.

4. You post all your listening results where everyone can see them.

5. You then reveal which subwoofer was which.

6. Then you take the measurements of both subwoofers.

Is it your position that skipping to #6 is superior ?