Entry level Speakers Versus.....

[BobSD]

Is there rule of thumb or is all about price?? I now have Definitives, and I am going to buy some MartinLogan, for a different sound. Def 7000s versus ML Summits? What would be considered before one is rated above the other in the general sense? Thanks!

 

[mazersteven]

Is there rule of thumb or is all about price?? I now have Definitives, and I am going to buy some MartinLogan, for a different sound. Def 7000s versus ML Summits? What would be considered before one is rated above the other in the general sense? Thanks!

 

[jamie2112]

UMMM the def techs start with the letter D so they must be better than Martin logans that start with an M or maybe B&W cause they start with a B. I am really just playin as I don't understand the Question

 

[gus6464]

Well for starters DT BP7000 to Martin Logan Summits is a huge upgrade not just in price but also in sound (sorry DT fans). But what is it that you are asking? If you like the sound the ML why shouldn't you get them? I know I would in a heartbeat

 

[mike c]

i think he's asking about diminishing returns...or maybe if the Summits are that much better than the DT's mentioned...or...

 

[gus6464]

i think he's asking about diminishing returns...or maybe if the Summits are that much better than the DT's mentioned...or...

Well if he has listened to the Summits and is considering their purchase then it must sound better to the OP.

 

[jamie2112]

It sounds like you are just going to buy the MLs for a change of sound. Have you listened to the Martins yet. Have you listened to anything else? There are a lot of speaker choices in your price range.I myself would listen to as many DIFFERENT speakers as you can and then make a choice. Thats half the fun of getting new speakers is listening and finding the ones that suit your preference . Good luck with your purchase.

 

[markw]

I wish they were all this simple.

Is there rule of thumb or is all about price?? I now have Definitives, and I am going to buy some MartinLogan, for a different sound. Def 7000s versus ML Summits? What would be considered before one is rated above the other in the general sense? Thanks!

The answer to your question is actually two other questions, neither of which can be answered by anyone exept yourself.

1) Which one sounds better to you?

and

2) Can you justify the prices involved?

 

[BobSD]

Sorry I did not explain my question so all could understand. Oh I like the B & D theory that would make things too easy!lo So I have my Defs and I listen to some Paradigms and I say I like this sound, and my buddy says they are about at the same level speakers you have now, you would not be stepping to the next level. So I think you answered my question ML are the next level. I only heard the Vantage, and I loved the mids and high range because of there unusual design, what clearity. So without hearing them I have the Summits coming. very excited. Just wanted to know in your opinion am I entering a higher level?

 

[jostenmeat]

Yea, I'd say you are. The Summits, IMO, are much better than the Vantages. If only for the much improved woofer/panel integration. Though that's nuts you would get such expensive speakers without hearing them. I have a pair. They are pretty darn close to full-range, 24-20khz, each speaker having two 10" alum woofers powered, each of which is powered by its own 200w ice amp.

There are a few tough things about them. You will need considerable space between the speakers and boundaries. Im talking about a few feet, if not more, from both side walls and front wall. They want a bigger room too. I highly recommend some treatments, especially for front wall. Takes research, and dependent on how far you are from certain boundaries. (For instance if you are close to rear wall, untreated, those reflections coming too quickly will sound more like smearing than ambience).

They are beamy. Depending on setup, size of room, you are talking about a sweet spot from only single person to perhaps three people max.

They want a high-current amp. They drop to 0.7 ohm. Everyone always told me to get the best I could afford, but I always went with less. I pretty much always have had the least expensive amplification (and electronics in general) of any Summit owners I know of.

Congrats. They were my favorite speakers I ever listened to. And I listened to some REALLY expensive speakers, like Dyn Evidences and Focal Grande Utopias. However, I listen to 99.9% acoustical music. No other speakers I heard could replicate the decay of a plucked string or struck piano note as well. IMO of course. Low-level detail is phenomenal.

Unfortunately, the room I put my speakers into really sucks. Im going to experiment some more, or do some re-re-arranging to put them in the living room. Will be far less than ideal, but it can't be any worse. Bummer.

Does SD stand for San Diego?

 

[jostenmeat]

Just wanted to add... I don't know if you are having these delivered, or are picking them up, but the boxes are HUGE. Even with a large SUV, you might have to take two trips, one trip per speaker.

 

[chadnliz]

First in general ML speakers are in a different league than DT speakers, not to say the Def's are bad but the Logan is a speaker made by a company that I feel has higher standards and they dont lie about specs which cant be said for DT. As others have mentioned they really need room, if you or a wife will demand they be up close to a wall flanking a huge hutch, look elsewhere. If you are going to feed them with a mass market reciever of modest power you may also want to look elsewhere. If you like mainly Rock and todays Pop recordings the poor quality will really get to you on a revealing Electrostat, I own Electrostats from Innersound so I am speaking from experience. They do beam a pretty narrow image so large multi-user HT may not be ideal but they have a magic few speakers can rival, people love these speakers so much they shower with them, if you think I am joking do a search. Be cautious to really audition them with lots of material you know and love, some are thrilled with them right away but dont realize they are not truely a speaker they want to live with long term..........more so than with many speakers.

 

[gus6464]

You used to have a pair of ML chad? A couple of weeks back I went with a friend to local showroom here in San Antonio to check out the new Epos Mi line and they had a pair of Quad ESL-2905 in this huge room powered by Quad electronics and I must say it was the most beautiful thing I have ever heard. Even though I have heard the B&W 802D and 800D they still couldn't touch the sound that was coming out of those electrostats. I must it has been the only time I have ever gotten goosebumps from listening to a speaker.

 

[3db]

Sorry I did not explain my question so all could understand. Oh I like the B & D theory that would make things too easy!lo So I have my Defs and I listen to some Paradigms and I say I like this sound, and my buddy says they are about at the same level speakers you have now, you would not be stepping to the next level. So I think you answered my question ML are the next level. I only heard the Vantage, and I loved the mids and high range because of there unusual design, what clearity. So without hearing them I have the Summits coming. very excited. Just wanted to know in your opinion am I entering a higher level?

Is it better sound you are after or snob appeal? That is the question you really need to ask yourself. If you are happy with the Paradigm sound, then why go with the ML? Who cares what others think? If it sounds better to you, then its an upgrade period.

Also are you prepared to upgrade your amp capabilities to meet the load requirements of the MLs? Do you have a room big enough to use their capabilities?

 

[Joe Schmoe]

The only possible definition of a "higher level" is based on how they sound to you. If you like them better then yes, they are a higher level. If not, then they aren't. Why do you care what your buddy (or anyone else) thinks?

(For myself, I hear such excellent and completely satisfying sound from "budget" speakers that I cannot justify ever buying something more expensive. This means that I would say there is no such thing as a "higher level", once a certain basic performance has been reached.)

Oh, and Def Tech makes truly outstanding speakers, tough to beat at any price.

 

[bandphan]

The ELS line would be considered a "level" up in regards to music performance. As stated these speakers like room and power so give them both. Electrostatics carlity imo what sells these types of speakers, along with other planar/ribbon driver based systems. The active electronics employed in the Summits are well thought out and blending of the upper and lower frequencies is done nicely. Having heard both speakers, imo the logan handles the lower extension better. Since the listening expeirence is subjective it will never be this is better than that, but imo if the two lines where to be compared, it would be the Design Series to most of the Def Techs, not the ELS(with one exception).

 

[BobSD]

There is alot of valued information here, would like to show my appreciation by concluding with the following comments. I liked the A&B theory, and the snob appeal. Like alot of you I work my butt off from sun rise to almost sun set and take care of my wife, my dogs, the house, there is always somehthing to do, I am even the cook of the house and I even clean the dishes(if you ever tasted my wifes cooking you would know why). But a special event takes place between 6 & 8 Pm every day, I retreat into my audio listening room I fire up the hardware, pop in a CD and it makes everything I do worth it! I have never shown my audio setup to anyone so the snob appeal does not fit.. I am going to keep my Def for surround sound and the Logans for 2.1, and will push them with a amp rated at 400 watts at 4 Ohom. I will keep my AV receiver as a pre amp, and what is nice about Denon they have front A and B speakers, my Integra I just bought only has one front. The room is 27' x 21', so I will have alot of area to adjust speakers. I will get these on the forth of July so this will be one of the most memorable 4ths for me. Thanks for all your inputs, and SD is for Beautiful South Dakota.

 

[gus6464]

There is alot of valued information here, would like to show my appreciation by concluding with the following comments. I liked the A&B theory, and the snob appeal. Like alot of you I work my butt off from sun rise to almost sun set and take care of my wife, my dogs, the house, there is always somehthing to do, I am even the cook of the house and I even clean the dishes(if you ever tasted my wifes cooking you would know why). But a special event takes place between 6 & 8 Pm every day, I retreat into my audio listening room I fire up the hardware, pop in a CD and it makes everything I do worth it! I have never shown my audio setup to anyone so the snob appeal does not fit.. I am going to keep my Def for surround sound and the Logans for 2.1, and will push them with a amp rated at 400 watts at 4 Ohom. I will keep my AV receiver as a pre amp, and what is nice about Denon they have front A and B speakers, my Integra I just bought only has one front. The room is 27' x 21', so I will have alot of area to adjust speakers. I will get these on the forth of July so this will be one of the most memorable 4ths for me. Thanks for all your inputs, and SD is for Beautiful South Dakota.

Enjoy them my friend.

 

[jostenmeat]

There is alot of valued information here, would like to show my appreciation by concluding with the following comments. I liked the A&B theory, and the snob appeal. Like alot of you I work my butt off from sun rise to almost sun set and take care of my wife, my dogs, the house, there is always somehthing to do, I am even the cook of the house and I even clean the dishes(if you ever tasted my wifes cooking you would know why). But a special event takes place between 6 & 8 Pm every day, I retreat into my audio listening room I fire up the hardware, pop in a CD and it makes everything I do worth it! I have never shown my audio setup to anyone so the snob appeal does not fit.. I am going to keep my Def for surround sound and the Logans for 2.1, and will push them with a amp rated at 400 watts at 4 Ohom. I will keep my AV receiver as a pre amp, and what is nice about Denon they have front A and B speakers, my Integra I just bought only has one front. The room is 27' x 21', so I will have alot of area to adjust speakers. I will get these on the forth of July so this will be one of the most memorable 4ths for me. Thanks for all your inputs, and SD is for Beautiful South Dakota.

Congrats, again, Bob. Im happy for you. Careful when you are moving them around, or first installing. The woofer that is down-firing is completely exposed. Moving them around is difficult, and is probably best with two people (if not a forced situation). Even adjusting their positioning is probably with two people (one to listen and direct small adjustements).

Thanks for the SD explanation. I drove thru there last summer, accompanying my brother on his move from Chicago to CA. I got a ticket there, and only recently realized that my insurance went up $200, and will stay like that for a couple more years! (I got a ticket in Ohio many years ago, and that one never showed up... I'll blame it on globalization, heh). Anyways, we were planning on camping at the Badlands, but it was raining, so just moseyed along thru. (I think we made it all the way to Devil's Tower that night)...

If you want to ask for any advice, etc, feel free to ask by PM or otherwise. Another electrostat owner here is Seth V, and he is the nicest and most helpful person.

-jostenmeat

 

[chadnliz]

I own Innersound Eros MKIII speakers that are just like a Logan just not curved on the Panel, the were better at integrating bass than Logan was in 2002 when new but that is no more, with the Summits you get one of the best values period. The other differnce with my Innersound's were they required Bi-Amp with a supplied bass amp with internal crossover and were awarded best in show at the Vagas event in 2001 I believe.
I dont run them anyomre as I now use a VMPS model that is a Planar/ribbon Hybrid that again is bi-amp with an external powered cross-over that just works better for me as I get most of the magic of Electrostats but an easier to live with speaker, (larger sweetspot, more bass, easier to place in room) but ya never know I may just whip them out again someday.
I have noticed some opinions on price and understand that as they offer I also offer an opinion but in many cases you get what you pay for and those who cant or refuse to hear an improvement either cant hear very well, have poor equipment, rooms, and associated items that dont perform well enough to reveal diggerent personalities in speakers or they just dont care to spend real money on a hobby but if you listen a couple hours a day I say go for it!
My father and I and several friends listen daily for extended periods of time plus enjoy movies and our systems vary in price from $20000 to $75000 and its worth every penny, some get it and some dont and if they dont its no use in argueing, just smile and move on then fire up some music! There are folks that think a $500 reciever is as good as it gets, speaker cables make no differnce, a CD player is a CD player but there are those that champion the opposite of every above opinion and it gets heated when talking about it, but do understand any money you spend is likely only going to impress you and if your lucky a friend or two but dont bet on it. This is also in general such a solitary hobby that you need to not worry about what anyone else has, your never going to meet them anyway!