Emotiva 8.3 vs Axiom M80v3 vs Swan Diva 6.2

WooHoo

WooHoo

Audioholic
I have been enjoying my set up for nearly 7 years now incorporating Energy C9's primarily using Yamaha AVR power. I recently added the Emotiva XPA-3 amp to the system to provide power across the front and I am very pleased with the results. :D

I am now looking to upgrade the speakers. I am assuming that the options I have mentioned are in fact an upgrade. Your opinions on this matter! I have read on other threads that the RC series that followed my C-9's were a major improvement and I missed out on that now long gone series. The current FC series from Energy takes the lower rung on any performance ladder IMO. The center channel of my current system is the weak link for sure. I had to settle for the lesser of two center channel options at the point I bought my Energy's and have regretted it since.

You can see my equipment in my sig.

I am looking at three options (all within about $350 of each other) that I think would fit the bill. All of them have received very favorable reviews. I don't have $7 grand to plunk down and A/B them and I want to avoid shipping speakers back and forth between sources. Emotiva is only a couple hours away from my house, so I would not have a problem taking them back if they did not work out (and so I guess maybe I am leaning in that direction). Customer service with Axiom and Emotiva appear excellent. Not so familiar with the Swan in that regard. There is much more written about the Axioms and the Swans as far as information on the web. Little about the Emotivas though I have read everything I can find on their site/forum and others.

Emotiva

Looking at a pair of ERT 8.3 Towers, an ERT 6.3 for the center and a pair of ERD1's for the back. They are the most expensive of the group as they are not currently on sale. When they are, they are equal with the Axioms and Swans. Free shipping, but I have to pay sales tax in Tennessee. I wonder about the 6.3 for a center in this set up?

Axiom

The M80's are the smallest towers of the bunch but still offer 6 drivers (3 in pairs). I think that the V150 center looks awesome and I would consider the Monster sized V180 but it would be a nearly $300 upgrade over the V150. Are the QS4 surrounds a better choice than the EMO ERD1's? The QS8's are an option but again, added cost.

Swan

I am least of all familiar with these. Everything about them including asthetics is very appealing. I wonder about the C3 center? The R3 surrounds appear as good as the ERD1's.

Overall it would seem the Axioms would play the loudest given their sensitivity but that is not a big issue with me. My listening is 70/30 HT/TV versus Music but the music percentage is growing as of late.

Am I on the right track here?

Would these in fact be a significant upgrade to my current Energy's?

I value the opinions of others on this forum and look forward to your comments?

Thanks in advance! :)
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
the ERT 8.3s look like an excellent 3-way for crossing to a subwoofer. Just looking at it, the 6.3 looks like a well designed perfect center channel.

I'd steer clear of axioms... their speakers are only for people who live on 90 foot poles.

Regarding swans, I know hiVi makes some nice drivers as far as chinese stuff goes but I've never seen much on the quality of their crossovers. I'd be weary at the very least.

Other options you should look into IMO would be

Revel Concerta F12
PSB Image T6
Salk Songtower
JTR Triple 8
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Tack the SVS MTS-02 onto that list. an XPA-3 should be able to drive it and it's supposed to be absolutely excellent.
 
sawzalot

sawzalot

Audioholic Samurai
I'd steer clear of axioms... their speakers are only for people who live on 90 foot poles.
Other options you should look into IMO would be

Revel Concerta F12
PSB Image T6
Salk Songtower
JTR Triple 8
What exactly does the 90 foot pole comment relate to, thanks, sawz.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I have read on other threads that the RC series that followed my C-9's were a major improvement and I missed out on that now long gone series.
Au contraire, mon frere!:)

http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/details/542220550/energy-rc30

http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/details/542561319/energy-rc50

As long as you can live with their black speakers, there has hardly ever been a better time to buy RC series speakers. There are still some on close-out!

If you are interested in the RC-70's, it looks like they are expecting to get some in Cherry - you may want to give Vann's a call to find out:
http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/features/542541451/energy-rc70

If you are more comfortable dealing through Amazon, Vanns sells through Amazon at the same price.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Well, I'm quite familiar with the Axiom M80 and the Emotiva speakers - I haven't heard the Swans for myself, so I can't comment on those.

First up: what are your room dimensions and how far away are you sitting from your speakers?

You have to allow adequate distance for all of the drivers in a tower speaker to "sum" together into a single, coherent sound source. Sit too close and you can wind up with audible separation between the drivers.

Now, the recent backlash towards Axiom aside, their top level speakers are still very good performers. After listening to the entire Axiom lineup for several years, however, I have to say that I really only think their top models should be considered. That new VP180 is stellar and matches seemlessly with the M80 towers. The other two center speaker options have always sounded a bit "off" IMO. I've never been able to whole-heartedly recommend Axiom's center speakers. But the VP180 changes that! The thing is, you really need to build a matching system around the VP180 and that means M80 towers and QS8 surrounds - so the most expensive package that Axiom offers.

With that top-of-the-lineup package, you get a very seemless and highly accurate speaker package. Despite their unwillingness to participate in the subwoofer shootout (not that I would recommend any of the Axiom subwoofers anyway), their anechoic testing of their speakers basically boils down to one, nice thing - whatever the final outcome in your room, Axiom's top model speakers won't be "to blame" for any anomalies. The M80 towers and VP180 center act as very neutral and transparent pieces of equipment. You can thus, tune their response to your room's particular acoustic characteristics and be quite certain that they will respond in a very predictable way. The M80 and VP180 will not be ruler flat in your room on their own. But they are ruler flat in an anechoic chamber. That means that what the speakers themselves are producing in terms of output is accurate and reliable. So from that baseline, you can adjust the rest of your equipment and the room's acoustics in order to achieve your desired results. You are not having to work around the speakers having some sort of "character" or their own.

When you step down from the top line models though, while Axiom still aims for neutral and transparent performance, they aren't able to achieve it to the same high standard. Those VP100 and VP150 center speakers are just not right and the other tower and bookshelf speakers have little quirks to them as well. So... if you go Axiom, go all the way and get their highest end models.

The Emotiva speakers are very, very close to being professional studio monitors. They have the same sort of adjustability as pro monitors, which means that you can somewhat tailor the speakers to your room, as opposed to the other way around.

Unless you are planning to run your system without a subwoofer though, the 8.3 towers are not really necessary. The 8.3 towers act essentially exactly the way you would expect them to based on their looks - they are a large bookshelf monitor perched atop a couple of bass drivers! If you have a subwoofer (or two or four) in your system, then you will literally not be using those bass drivers in the 8.3 towers! Instead, you could keep the cost lower by using the 6.2 large bookshelf speakers for your front L/R or the even more powerful 6.3 speakers with three of them across the front.

The only issue I have with the Emotiva speakers (aside from their VERY plain looks and larger-than-you-might-think size) is the tweeter. Don't get me wrong - it's not bad. But it just isn't that great a tweeter. It hits its output limits fairly easily (again, really reminds me of a nearfield pro monitor). And its extension before hitting break up or becoming sibiliant isn't anything to write home about.

So, despite their size and ample ability to devour amplifier power, I actually think the Emotiva speakers are best suited to moderately sized rooms - akin to a professional mixing room. They are very neutral - they will tell it like it is. And you can adjust their output to compensate for room placement and distance - which is always handy.

The ERD-1 surrounds are a treat though - they nail the dipole design and effect. What I like best is that they adhere to the 2nd order 80Hz design (other than the 8.3 towers). They are one of the very few speaker options out there that adheres to this design. As a result, they work PERFECTLY within a THX setup where the receiver/pre-amp uses a 2nd order high-pass on the speakers and a 4th order low pass on the subwoofer. With the natural 2nd order roll-off of the speakers themselves, you get the intended 4th order slope on the bottom end of the speakers at 80Hz. This is how THX was MEANT to be implemented, so that is a strong plus for the Emotiva speakers IMO. If they had a better tweeter, I'd praise them to no end! :)
 
WooHoo

WooHoo

Audioholic
Well, I'm quite familiar with the Axiom M80 and the Emotiva speakers - I haven't heard the Swans for myself, so I can't comment on those.

First up: what are your room dimensions and how far away are you sitting from your speakers?

You have to allow adequate distance for all of the drivers in a tower speaker to "sum" together into a single, coherent sound source. Sit too close and you can wind up with audible separation between the drivers.

Now, the recent backlash towards Axiom aside, their top level speakers are still very good performers. After listening to the entire Axiom lineup for several years, however, I have to say that I really only think their top models should be considered. That new VP180 is stellar and matches seemlessly with the M80 towers. The other two center speaker options have always sounded a bit "off" IMO. I've never been able to whole-heartedly recommend Axiom's center speakers. But the VP180 changes that! The thing is, you really need to build a matching system around the VP180 and that means M80 towers and QS8 surrounds - so the most expensive package that Axiom offers.

With that top-of-the-lineup package, you get a very seemless and highly accurate speaker package. Despite their unwillingness to participate in the subwoofer shootout (not that I would recommend any of the Axiom subwoofers anyway), their anechoic testing of their speakers basically boils down to one, nice thing - whatever the final outcome in your room, Axiom's top model speakers won't be "to blame" for any anomalies. The M80 towers and VP180 center act as very neutral and transparent pieces of equipment. You can thus, tune their response to your room's particular acoustic characteristics and be quite certain that they will respond in a very predictable way. The M80 and VP180 will not be ruler flat in your room on their own. But they are ruler flat in an anechoic chamber. That means that what the speakers themselves are producing in terms of output is accurate and reliable. So from that baseline, you can adjust the rest of your equipment and the room's acoustics in order to achieve your desired results. You are not having to work around the speakers having some sort of "character" or their own.

When you step down from the top line models though, while Axiom still aims for neutral and transparent performance, they aren't able to achieve it to the same high standard. Those VP100 and VP150 center speakers are just not right and the other tower and bookshelf speakers have little quirks to them as well. So... if you go Axiom, go all the way and get their highest end models.

The Emotiva speakers are very, very close to being professional studio monitors. They have the same sort of adjustability as pro monitors, which means that you can somewhat tailor the speakers to your room, as opposed to the other way around.

Unless you are planning to run your system without a subwoofer though, the 8.3 towers are not really necessary. The 8.3 towers act essentially exactly the way you would expect them to based on their looks - they are a large bookshelf monitor perched atop a couple of bass drivers! If you have a subwoofer (or two or four) in your system, then you will literally not be using those bass drivers in the 8.3 towers! Instead, you could keep the cost lower by using the 6.2 large bookshelf speakers for your front L/R or the even more powerful 6.3 speakers with three of them across the front.

The only issue I have with the Emotiva speakers (aside from their VERY plain looks and larger-than-you-might-think size) is the tweeter. Don't get me wrong - it's not bad. But it just isn't that great a tweeter. It hits its output limits fairly easily (again, really reminds me of a nearfield pro monitor). And its extension before hitting break up or becoming sibiliant isn't anything to write home about.

So, despite their size and ample ability to devour amplifier power, I actually think the Emotiva speakers are best suited to moderately sized rooms - akin to a professional mixing room. They are very neutral - they will tell it like it is. And you can adjust their output to compensate for room placement and distance - which is always handy.

The ERD-1 surrounds are a treat though - they nail the dipole design and effect. What I like best is that they adhere to the 2nd order 80Hz design (other than the 8.3 towers). They are one of the very few speaker options out there that adheres to this design. As a result, they work PERFECTLY within a THX setup where the receiver/pre-amp uses a 2nd order high-pass on the speakers and a 4th order low pass on the subwoofer. With the natural 2nd order roll-off of the speakers themselves, you get the intended 4th order slope on the bottom end of the speakers at 80Hz. This is how THX was MEANT to be implemented, so that is a strong plus for the Emotiva speakers IMO. If they had a better tweeter, I'd praise them to no end! :)
Thanks FirstReflection, I appreciate all of the input. My room dimensions are 20' x 15' with 9' ceilings. Room is carpeted. Sitting area is 11 feet from the mains. The room is oddly set up in that I have to place the TV and speakers in a corner, so not ideal at all. Thanks for confirming what I suspected on the Axioms. Go for their highest end. The comment on the Emotivas are pretty positive other than I am a little concerned about the tweeter comment. I don't think that would stop me from auditioning them though. Do you think the room is too big for the Emotivas? I do some 2 channel listening without the sub, so I think the 8.3 is my better option.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
whatever the final outcome in your room, Axiom's top model speakers won't be "to blame" for any anomalies. The M80 towers and VP180 center act as very neutral and transparent pieces of equipment.
I find it difficult to believe a speaker with two tweeters, a 160hz passive crossover, and would never be to blame...
 
WooHoo

WooHoo

Audioholic
I ordered the Emotivas today. Gonna give them an audition. Ordered
(2) 8.3's, a 6.3 and the ERD-1 surrounds. Should have them tomorrow. :)

Thanks everyone.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Nice choice on the Emotiva speakers! I think you will find them to be very revealing. They have the sort of sound quality where, once you get used to them, you'll notice all sorts of deficiencies in other speakers!

Like I said, they really, really remind me of professional studio mixing monitors. You basically get a performance that is very close to what the mixer would have heard in his/her studio :)

Don't be too worried about what I said about the tweeter. For one thing, your room size and distance are not concerns at all. Both are just about perfect for the output capabilities of the Emotiva speakers, IMO. Your choice of the 8.3 towers makes sense if you sometimes run two channel without your sub. Don't be afraid to include the subwoofer even just with two channel though! The bass performance of those 8.3 towers sounds good with most music, but there isn't a while lot of extension below about 40 Hz.

The Emotivas serve as a very good point of reference, IMO. You get to hear a very uncolored sound and it will serve you well in revealing something very close to what the sound engineers heard, and thus intended for you to hear as well. From here, you'll basically "know what to listen for" :) And when you one day hear speakers that are capable of revealing even a bit more detail or can play with even a bit less distortion at higher output levels, you will know just how good those speakers really are because the Emotivas will have prepared you well :) You will also see just how expensive that "next level" type of performance really is and that will make you feel all the more pleased and confident that you really got your money's worth with the Emotivas :D
 
M

Midwesthonky

Audioholic General
Well, congrats on your order. It's a bit late for my opinion, but I do have Axiom for my setup.

I went with the M60v2 for mains due to cost and the VP150v2 center. The biggest difference I noticed was in the center compared to my old and very crappy center. The VP150 in my 18x18x17 room made a huge difference in my ability to clearly hear the voice tracks on movies. Plus it was balanced will with the M60's. So the dialogue was no longer being drowned out by the mains.

To be honest, I've very happy with my Axiom. Now, I wouldn't go with their subs, but the mains and center I am very happy with. Audio is a very subjective discipline. I like crisp, clear sound. But horn tweeters fatigue my ears after listening for a while. yada yada....

The next step I face is my room. I suspect the options you presented and your ultimate choice will serve you well and you will be quite happy. But like me, your next obstacle may be your room. Mine is a massive echo chamber that I can't get my wife to agree to let me take "steps" to improve. As you stated, you room requires a non-ideal layout. But you may be able to take a day and play with placement, wall hangings, etc to dial in your setup.

Good luck, congrats! New audio equipment is just so enjoyable when those boxes show up just begging to be opened!

:)
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Not to go too off topic, but acoustic room treatments are a favorite subject of mine :)

Midwesthonky, I'm going to assume that your wife's disapproval of adding acoustic treatments to the room has more to do with aesthetics than anything else?

If that's the case, then how does she feel about hanging pictures or paintings? Because one of the very best ways to bring acoustic treatments into any room while actually enhancing its appearance (as opposed to big, ugly panels or foam wedges all over the walls) is to use the newer "art" style panels that include printed images on the panels themselves. And for bass traps, rather than panels or tri-corner traps, you can use columns or tables that have bass trapping qualities.

Once again, GIK comes through big time! So definitely check out their GIK ArtPanel 242 panels for basic absorption (front wall, side walls, ceiling, directly behind the primary seat) as well as their Elite Pillar Bass Trap and Elite Table Trap for your bass trapping needs.

For diffusion (side walls, back wall and ceiling behind the listening position) GIK's new Q7d diffusor panels are a beautiful all-wood design that really looks fantastic. Of course, you can also use standard bookshelfs with randomly placed objects and books of varying sizes and depths for diffusion as well.

All of these GIK products cost a fair bit more than their most basic panels. But the combination of excellent acoustic performance AND great looks that actually enhance the room's appearance really cannot be beat for these sorts of prices. IMO, it's well worth saving up a bit of extra cash in order to get really good performing acoustic treatments that will also pass the WAF ;)
 
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