Elite VSX-94 THX OR ONKYO TX-SR875

[vin]

New at this and appreciate any help. The Onkyo TX-SR875 has Reon HQV scalers versus the elite which doesn't. Is this as big a deal as I am reading about? Also the heat factor on the 875 worries me. Bottom line The elite or the onkyo?

thanks

 

[Thunder18]

I think most will agree that the Reon is a better perfoming solution, however there are some caveats mainly in the way it handles and outputs sources. I believe there are certain instances where the Reon implementation in the Onkyo will change certain sources into 4:3 aspect ratio instead of 16:9. The Pioneer is still using the Faroudja scaler if i'm not mistaken. Most people are aware that it has a few flaws, but it still seems to be an inferior scaler to the Reon. Both receivers are very feature rich however. The only thing that drive me to the Onkyo over the Pioneer is that THX Ultra2 certification. A lot of people don't care about that, but in this case where the Pioneer is only THX Select2 certified, apples to apples, the Pioneer should not be capable of as high an output as the Onkyo. Ultra2 certification also specifies the ability to drive speakers at a 4 ohm load, the minimum load rating for Select2 is 6 ohm.
Some of this may not matter depending on your set-up. If you have easy to drive 8 ohm speakers or a room under 3500 sq. ft. you may have no need of the additional capacity provided by THX Ultra2.

 

[LETHAL]

I think the onkyo would be better for picture having the reon chip,but for the completer package the pioneer all the way.They both lie about there specifications but onkyo are deadset the worst at figures.

 

[mtrycrafts]

... but onkyo are deadset the worst at figures.

Do you have some credible examples of this dishonesty?

 

[Nimrod]

Don't worry about the heat. I got a $20 fan and it cooled things off dramaticly

 

[cholke]

Pioneer and 4ohms?

I really like the feature set on the Pioneer. I have some pretty inefficient Magnepan 1.6 4ohm speakers. I currently use an Arcam AVR350 to drive them. Pretty good as far as receivers go. My goal is to eventually use the receiver as a pre-amp.

I have read mixed things about Pioneer receivers driving 4ohm speakers. Some say they do it fine and others do not recommend it. I believe someone posted a reply from Pioneer support stating that it is not recommended.

My question is would this work at all for me in the short-term? I love the sound of the Arcam but like the Pioneer as well. Someone at Magnolia told me I could just put a resistor (I think) in the line between the receiver and the speaker and this would take them up to 8ohms. Sounds fishy. Thoughts?

Thanks,
Craig

 

[Nessy]

The Onkyo is 4 ohm stable and the Pioneer is not.

In order for the receiver to be THX Ultra certified it must be 4 ohm stable. If the receiver is Select certified then the receiver is able to handle 4 ohm LCR with 8 ohm surround channels. That might be important for you. It was for me.

 

[fmw]

The Onkyo is 4 ohm stable and the Pioneer is not.

In order for the receiver to be THX Ultra certified it must be 4 ohm stable.

Simply not true. The day I bought my Pioneer 92 (Equivalent to the 94 without network connectivity) the dealer made a demo for me driving 4 ohm speakers really loud. He did the same thing with a comparably priced Yamaha and it went into protection mode. My 92 runs so cool that you can barely feel any warmth with your hand. That indicates a beefy power supply and overall construction and that explains the Pioneer's ability to drive difficult loads. While other receivers have processors that are as good as the Pioneer, few have amplifiers as strong. So certification aside, the Pioneer is as strong in the amplifier section as most separate multichannel AV amps. The amps are really what the Pioneer Elite line is all about.

Personally, I replaced an Onkyo 605 that had a very, very poor processor with the Pioneer 92. Obviously it isn't comparable to the 875 but the 605, despite its wonderful specs and feature list, wasn't a good performer. The Pioneer seems to perform better than its specs would indicate. All the digital surround modes perform cleanly and flawlessly in my 92 so its processor certainly isn't bad. I'm not trying to denigrate the Onkyo 875. I have no personal experience with it and I'm sure it is an excellent product. I'm just trying to clear up information about the Pioneer's amplifiers.

 

[fmw]

My question is would this work at all for me in the short-term? I love the sound of the Arcam but like the Pioneer as well. Someone at Magnolia told me I could just put a resistor (I think) in the line between the receiver and the speaker and this would take them up to 8ohms. Sounds fishy. Thoughts?

Thanks,
Craig

Pretty fishy. Impedance and resistance are different things even though they use the ohm as a measurement. Impedance is similar to resistance except it is an AC measurement (signal required.) Putting a resistor in series with the speakers would simply increase the resistance, not the impedance. It would require your amp to work harder to drive the speaker.

 

[Seth=L]

I think the onkyo would be better for picture having the reon chip,but for the completer package the pioneer all the way.They both lie about there specifications but onkyo are deadset the worst at figures.

Wow, your opinion only pal. Keep your agenda's to yourself.

The fact is either one of these receivers can handle a 4 ohm load pretty well, with maybe a slight edge to the Onkyo. Pioneer uses a more efficient amplifier design than Onkyo, which is obvious because the Onkyo's generate lots of heat. The heat is not a defect, but rather a characteristic of the design. The Pioneer Elite receivers use Mosfet output devices that run much cooler than the Onkyo's output devices do. Mosfets, from my understanding, do quite well with lower impedance, and even though Pioneer does not recommend connection 4 ohm speakers to their receivers they should handle them fine. Pioneer is just protecting themselves, and telling customers that they aren't safe for use with 4 ohm loads probably saves a lot of receivers from being repaired.

 

[Nessy]

I don’t want to start some sort of a flame war but the Onkyo SR805 is 4 ohm stable.

In order for a speaker to be THX Ultra certified the speaker must never dip below 3.6 ohm (it might be 3.8 ohms don’t remember off the top of my head). Therefore, Ultra certified receivers are 4 ohm stable.

Not all 4 ohm speakers are created equal. Some may dip below 3 ohm and others perhaps lower still. One of the reasons for THX certification is to relieve these sorts of questions from the consumer. The consumer just wants to go home and hook everything up and have the equipment work the first time—He doesn’t want guess work.

Another benefit of THX is a guarantee. THX is backing the manufacturer with regards to it specifications. If the speaker manufacturer claims 80Hz-20 kHz +/- 2dB then THX is guaranteeing the claim is accurate.
THX standardized the industry and started the certification process at a time when speaker manufacturers where making ridiculous claims i.e. 20Hz-20 kHz on products that clearly didn’t deliver.

THX has taken it a bit far in my opinion with some of its certifications, but that doesn’t mean that a THX certification worthless or meaningless.

To each his own.

 

[fmw]

Thanks for that information. I wasn't even aware that 4 ohm nominal speakers were available that would be above 3.6 or 3.8 ohms at every frequency. My experience with speakers is that they mostly have fluctuations that are more severe than that. If someone asked me for a speaker that didn't go below 3.6 ohms, I'd recommend a 6 ohm nominal impedance at a minimum.

I checked the THX site and found 42 THX Ultra certified LCR speaker models from a handful of manufacturers. I didn't take time to check every one but I spent a half hour trying to find some that had a 4 ohm nominal impedance. The only ones found were powered pro audio speakers. There were some at 6 ohms nominal and that didn't surprise me given the requirement. Perhaps someone else wants to dedicate more time to it than I did.

So I think finding 4 ohm speakers that tight in impedance across the frequency spectrum may be pretty hard to do. Does 4 ohm stable mean 4 ohm stable under the THX umbrella? If so, then that would probably apply to any receiver in practice simply because it apparently takes a 6 ohm speaker to meet the spec (powered speakers wouldn't count relative to receivers.) Does it mean capable of driving most 4ohm nominal speakers? That would be a more useful measure, I think, rather than putting it on THX certification.

My conclusion is that both receivers are 4 ohm stable and one of them is certified to be so. Now we just need some 4 ohm speakers that can also be certified.

 

[Nessy]

A speaker can and does fluctuate more than 3.6 or 3.8 ohms. A THX Ultra speaker just can never dip below 3.6 ohm. In other words, the speaker can play a frequency at 16 ohm and then play another 7 ohm. That is fine. As independence (ohms) falls the load on the amp raises.

THX ultra speakers must meet other criteria in order to be certified however, that information remains largely an industry secret (that is until you pay for it), because you can’t design a speaker to meet certain criteria until you know what that criteria is.

Without a doubt you will find a far greater number of professional monitors to be certified than consumer speakers. The certification process is rigorous and time consuming, and time equals money. Certification adds to the cost. Also, professionals more so than consumers need that guarantee in order trust that their work will be played similarly to what was originally designed in their studio.

A THX certification does not guarantee a good sounding speaker, so a bit of caution there—just that it meet certain criteria.
Personally, I am a huge M&K fan and own many of their products—some THX certified and other not. My main system consist of 5 1601’s and two subs one a MX-350SF and the other a MX-350SFXL. My studio is powered by 2 1611P’s and a MX-350. My bedroom has 2 B1600’s and a Deftech Supercube 1, I’m also sitting on a 750 system minus sub. I don’t know whether I want to sell them or install them at work.

Some people say sound is subjective (at least the reproduction of sound), I disagree. As an artist and designer I want you to make a decision based on what I present you to. Imagine judging the mona lisa, or the golden gate bridge through a photograph ran thru copier. I want hear/see it as the artist intended. I want to hear something and say that I don’t like because I didn’t like the way it was recorded i.e. the red hot chili peppers’ blood sex sugar magic album.

Sorry for the rant. I just want to share my passions and what I know.

 

[Seth=L]

Sorry for the rant. I just want to share my passions and what I know.

Oh that's alright, rant on.

Some people say sound is subjective (at least the reproduction of sound), I disagree. As an artist and designer I want you to make a decision based on what I present you to. Imagine judging the mona lisa, or the golden gate bridge through a photograph ran thru copier. I want hear/see it as the artist intended. I want to hear something and say that I don’t like because I didn’t like the way it was recorded i.e. the red hot chili peppers’ blood sex sugar magic album.

I think the subjectivity comes into play largely depending on the source material. Completely accurate speakers (which I am sure the M&Ks aren't exactly perfect, even though they are very nice) can be very unforgiving with certain source material. But ideally I would like to have the most accurate system to bring the most reality to a recording, sadly most can't afford that, and must settle for very different types of speakers that please their ears. Some people love Klipsch, but they are typically horribly inaccurate, but those Klipsch fans still love the sound. I would apply the same logic to Bose listeners, but they haven't compared Bose to much else in most cases.