Dynamic requirements

[annunaki]

I never considered using pro amps before and I was under the assumption that quality sound was not a prerequisite for pro audio applications. I guess I was wrong.

But searching the forums, a number of members have commented that the A500 power amp gives high frequencies a fatiguing character and that the sound is not "full". Not just one member but a handful.

If I was going to do this, I would buy three A500's, one each per speaker. The rear speakers would be powered by the Onkyo 805. It seems like an awfully cheap solution that could beat high end seperate power amplifiers. Although there are those complaints I spoke about earlier.

Maybe some things are too good to be true ?

--Regards,

You can not use the A500 bridged mono for your application anyway as it is only rated for an 8 ohm mono load. 6ohms with a low sensitivity speaker like yours could cause some issues.

 

[annunaki]

I won't be able to afford that, methinks. But I did have a look at the Emotiva components. Namely, the LPA-1 power amp. It's only $449 and it delivers 125 watts per channel into 8 ohms and the thing weighs more than 60 pounds. It also uses toroidal transformers.

Now I know that the Behringer 2500 costs about the same (or cheaper) and apparently delivers more than 3 times the rated power into an 8 ohm load. But the Emotiva also has excellent build quality and looks great. From the reviews on Audioholics, it was given a very, very good rating.

So many options. Would the 2500 really sound better than the Emotiva ? The Emotiva looks like an audiophile grade component with performance to match. The 2500 looks ugly, apparently has a very loud fan (as stock) and also, apparently, delivers a heck of a lot more power.

Would do you guys think ?

--Regards,

125 watts rms does not gain you much more than 1db extra unclipped headroom over your current system. Seems like a waste if you want a real upgrade. Even if it is a great deal.

The EP2500 will sound better because of the increased unclipped dynamic range capability.

 

[annunaki]

TLS Guy,

I don't think anyone is saying that Parasound is a ripoff. They build a very nice product at a fairly reasonable price with very good service and warranty.

It is just that when it comes to amplifiers, other than power, with mainly looks being the difference between them, the Behringer is just an absolutely amazing value. It is by far the best bang for the buck amplifier on the market.

Will people stay away from them and ignore the facts, sure. Different strokes for different folks.

When someone is after pure functionality of what an amplifier is supposed to do, the Behringer is by far the best choice for each dollar spent. For people like Wmax, avaserfi, and me functionality trumps form everytime. Especially at $.13 a watt for a solidy constructed amplifier.

Someday, when I get a theater finished and I have 3,150 watts of unclipped power on tap for my seven channels (less subs) and people ask how much that costs I get to see them faint when I tell them $1,060.00.

 

[WmAx]

WmAx, if you had the available budget and had to choose between two amplifiers, one the Parasound 2250 250 watts per channel (2 ch) into 8 ohms or the Behringer 2500 which delivers more than 1.5 times the rated power, which one would you choose ?

,

If looks are not a concern, and you don't mind changing out the fan(or putting the amps in an A/V closet), then the EP2500 would be my choice based on function. The EP2500 clearly has more versatility, superior output ability and can drive virtually any load you could ever want to drive. I have not seen the build of the Parasound, but I expect the Behringer is considerably better in this regard as well. I know my McIntosh MC754 amplifiers were not of the same caliber as the EP2500 in build quality/construction, nor my Adcom 555, nor my Crown XLS amplifiers.

Will you hear a difference? Not likely in a normal situation. Even a 100 watt amp will not likely clip enough to become easily audible unless your speakers have very low sensitivity and/or you listen at very long distances in an unusually large room. Another time clipping would be possible to occur audibly in normal circumstances is if you play the speaker at high constant SPL(then the peaks will clip/compress by a substantial degree) or if you play extreme dynamic music. If you listen to popular major label releases for the most part, then this is not even an issue.

-Chris

 

[Vaughan Odendaa]

I think at the levels that I want to listen to (at or below -10 dB from calibrated reference) more power would be very beneficial.

Would I be correct in saying that the preamp is the source of the 'quality' of sound that one perceives ? I understand that headroom and unlimited dynamics play a big role but the transparency component is attributed to the preamp ? Because, for example, the Onkyo has a very good processing side. It uses Burr Brown dacs for each channel. Etc.etc.

--Regards,

 

[TLS Guy]

I think at the levels that I want to listen to (at or below -10 dB from calibrated reference) more power would be very beneficial.

Would I be correct in saying that the preamp is the source of the 'quality' of sound that one perceives ? I understand that headroom and unlimited dynamics play a big role but the transparency component is attributed to the preamp ? Because, for example, the Onkyo has a very good processing side. It uses Burr Brown dacs for each channel. Etc.etc.

--Regards,

No. Speakers are totally dominant. As I have said before, all but a select few leave their footprint over everything. The pre amp amp issue, I regard as a matter of extending the possibilities. I could not drive my rig with a receiver. For me having the high gain and processing separate from power amplification is essential.

 

[Vaughan Odendaa]

Perhaps I should have rephrased what I mean't to say. I understand that speakers are the dominating factor that determines sound quality, but is the pre amp itself the dominating component that gives the speakers it's transparency or lack therof ?

Would there be merit in hooking up any old super expensive power amplifier to a Teac receiver ?

--Regards,

 

[WmAx]

I think at the levels that I want to listen to (at or below -10 dB from calibrated reference) more power would be very beneficial.

Then, use EP2500 units. Per channel, at 6 ohms, you will have roughly 550-600 watts of clean continuous power available. At your impedance, if using these in stereo mode, use no more than two EP2500 amplifiers per 20 amp circuit or 1 per 15 amp circuit. If you exceed this, the available maximum power will be substantially decreased. If you decide to use these in bridged mono, you will need to use no more than 1 EP2500 per 20 amp circuit, or else, suffer substantially reduced maximum output power. If you run new circuits, use the heaviest gauge power wire that is feasible cost wise for your situation. Remember, series resistance builds up quick, reducing available power, in long runs of wire.

Would I be correct in saying that the preamp is the source of the 'quality' of sound that one perceives ? I understand that headroom and unlimited dynamics play a big role but the transparency component is attributed to the preamp ? Because, for example, the Onkyo has a very good processing side. It uses Burr Brown dacs for each channel. Etc.etc.

Most pre-amplifiers will be transparent. The exceptions are those with audible noise/hiss, simply bad designs that in some way clip/distort and certain audiophile units that may be designed with an audible coloration on purpose.

-Chris

 

[TLS Guy]

Yes, I agree with Chris. You can have bad and good pre amps or power amps. However, I don't feel the power amps in receivers are the apogee. For one thing they don't like loudspeaker impedance drops.

 

[Vaughan Odendaa]

WmAx and TLS Guy, thanks for your advice. Funny, I am the one giving advice on numerous boards (AVSforum in particular) on a number of topics, and now I'm given advice. I'm blessed.

Then it looks like the 805 with two Behringer 2500 amps, one amp to power the left and right main speakers, the other for the rears. What would you then recommend for the center speaker ? The 1500 ?

--Regards,

 

[TLS Guy]

WmAx and TLS Guy, thanks for your advice. Funny, I am the one giving advice on numerous boards (AVSforum in particular) on a number of topics, and now I'm given advice. I'm blessed.

Then it looks like the 805 with two Behringer 2500 amps, one amp to power the left and right main speakers, the other for the rears. What would you then recommend for the center speaker ? The 1500 ?

--Regards,

You could do that or look for a mono single channel amp.

 

[WmAx]

Then it looks like the 805 with two Behringer 2500 amps, one amp to power the left and right main speakers, the other for the rears. What would you then recommend for the center speaker ? The 1500 ?

--Regards,

Are you serious? At 6 ohms mono, an EP2500 would output in the range of 1500-1600 watts. What I would do is use one EP2500 in stereo mode, driving L & R. Then use a 2nd EP2500, use one channel of stereo mode for center. It will not hurt anything to have the other channel sit idle. But if you don't mind buying 3 of them - and have sufficient number of dedicated circuits to power them - go for it.

-Chris

 

[Vaughan Odendaa]

I don't know where you got the idea that I wanted to use the EP2500 in mono configuration. But I would use two EP2500 in stereo config, one to power left and right mains and the other to power left and right surrounds.

How much power does the EP1500 put out in mono (6 ohms) ?

Thanks.

--Regards,

 

[WmAx]

How much power does the EP1500 put out in mono (6 ohms) ?

Thanks.

--Regards,

Around 900-950 watts into 6 ohms bridged mono. However, I do not recommend the EP1500. For a marginal price increase, you can purchase the EP2500. You can use one channel of it and leave the other un-used - in order to perfectly match your L & R channels.

-Chris

 

[mtrycrafts]

... but is the pre amp itself the dominating component that gives the speakers it's transparency or lack therof ?
--Regards,

Not at all. It cannot make a speaker transparent but a poorly designed pre-amp can leave its mark. I doubt you will find a transparent speaker though.

 

[WmAx]

I doubt you will find a transparent speaker though.

Oh, but you can come close, very close, to transparency.

-Chris

 

[Vaughan Odendaa]

Thanks guys ! I really appreciate your advice. I think I've made up my mind and will go with 3 2500 units. Two at first and then I'll grap the third when my budget allows.

Now concerning the Behringer 2500 model, I wish that there were comparisons with higher priced seperates to get an idea performance-wise of what to expect.

I know that the 2500 measures well but a comparison with a Parasound, Classe or Krell wouldn't hurt right ? I mean, if the 2500's power delivery is in excess of 400 watts into an 8 ohm load (with extremely low distortion) then it should be able to compare favorably to these models, right ?

I've never seen a comparison between a high priced consumer amp and an inexpensive pro amp but it would be an eye opener (and ear opener ) to see the results of such a comparison.

--Regards,

 

[mike c]

I've never seen a comparison between a high priced consumer amp and an inexpensive pro amp but it would be an eye opener (and ear opener ) to see the results of such a comparison.

--Regards,

how about an even cheaper behringer proving itself worthy?

http://www.matrixhifi.com/contenedor_ppec_eng.htm

a good reading on the side:
http://bruce.coppola.name/audio/Amp_Sound.pdf

 

[annunaki]

Thanks guys ! I really appreciate your advice. I think I've made up my mind and will go with 3 2500 units. Two at first and then I'll grap the third when my budget allows.

Now concerning the Behringer 2500 model, I wish that there were comparisons with higher priced seperates to get an idea performance-wise of what to expect.

I know that the 2500 measures well but a comparison with a Parasound, Classe or Krell wouldn't hurt right ? I mean, if the 2500's power delivery is in excess of 400 watts into an 8 ohm load (with extremely low distortion) then it should be able to compare favorably to these models, right ?

I've never seen a comparison between a high priced consumer amp and an inexpensive pro amp but it would be an eye opener (and ear opener ) to see the results of such a comparison.

--Regards,

You will not see many manufacturers willing to step up to the plate in any major publiction, online or print. If they are outclassed by a product at a third of the price and the cheaper amplifier is of higher build quality, they would never hear the end of it. Having seen the internals of many high quality amplifiers, the Behringer is definitely one of the best in terms of components. Classe' is by far one of the cleanest looking for internals with very few wires, but they are very expensive.

 

[Vaughan Odendaa]

Would it be possible to organize a test here between a high priced seperate power amp and a low cost pro amp ?

I saw the article and I appreciate the fact that it was posted. But I need more.

--Regards,