Rob Babcock

Rob Babcock

Moderator
<font color='#8D38C9'>The same guy who panned the Denon DVD-2900 raved the DVD-2200. &nbsp;In fact, he said it sounded so good that he wondered if the '2900 might have been damaged before he got it. &nbsp;I'm a subscriber to TAS, btw!


I can appreciate your concerns about mods- I share some of them. &nbsp;But I think Alex will stand by his mods. &nbsp;He's pretty dang sharp- in fact, he's the guy who first identified the problem that's caused so many of Philips SACD-1000s to fail, and the company has even adopted his fix for it! &nbsp;He's been around for years and is something of a legend in the audio community.

Believe me, I take the Golden Ears crap with a grain of salt. &nbsp;I'm the moderator of several forums at AC, including the Acoustics Circle and Multichannel & The Digital Domain. &nbsp;I have a very low tolerance for snake oil. &nbsp;I get pretty vocal about things that I've heard actually work, but I'm not a believer in Magic Cables and such.

I really wish this site allowed us to easily import our Avatars- it really wouldn't be very tough. &nbsp;As for my AC Avatar, well...I'm not an art critic by any means, but I really love the paintings ofEdmund Blair Leighton. &nbsp;No prints, I'm afraid, but I have a calender of his paintings.

Yeah, I do spend a lot of time on audio & the audio forums, but my job gives me the luxury of having a lot of time on my hands!
</font>
 
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A. Vivaldi

A. Vivaldi

Audioholic
<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I really wish this site allowed us to easily import our Avatars- it really wouldn't be very tough.</td></tr></table>That's one of the things I can't understand, because most forums let you do this. I even started my own web page and put my images on it like Rip told me to, and I still couldn't get my avatar on here. No matter what I did, It just appeared as a tiny little square. Mabye we ought to start some crap in The Steam Vent about it. &nbsp;
(mabye they'll just say "shut the hell up morons, It's free!" &nbsp;
)</font>
 
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jeffsg4mac

jeffsg4mac

Republican Poster Boy
<font color='#000000'>Rob, have you listened to DTS 96/24 yet? I have only one disk that has it, Queen the Game, It is impressive sounding though. I would like to see some movies or concerts in DTS 96/24. Pink Floyd The Delicate Sound of Thunder in DTS 96/24 Ahhhhhhh!!!!  
 


Well I can dream can't I?</font>
 
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Shinerman

Shinerman

Senior Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>I think A. Vivaldi makes a good point here,

"They may both fail! As it stands right now the masses think CD is good enough, and some even think MP3 is sufficient."

I love DVD-A and SACD but ultimately I don't think they will ever be more than a upscale "audiophile" product. &nbsp;I think they will continue to exist in some form for years to come, but I doubt they will ever replace CD. &nbsp;

Most people, I'm guessing 95% or so, don't even know what DVD-A and SACD are and they think CD is the ultimate sound. &nbsp; Like A. Vivaldi said, it's about what the masses want. &nbsp; I would think MP3 or some variant will be the wave of the future. &nbsp;Download and burn it. &nbsp;Quick and easy. &nbsp; Granted we are not talking about the greatest sound quality, but the "Masses" think it's good enough. &nbsp; Plus maybe MP4 will come out and be in 5.1? &nbsp;Who knows.

DVD-A and SACD have been out for several years now and they still represent a really small fraction of the music out there. &nbsp; Remember how fast CDs took off. &nbsp; Within year or so of CDs coming out, I never bought a tape again. &nbsp;I could probably say that about DVD-A and SACD if the titles were there, but they are not. &nbsp;

Shinerman</font>
 
Rob Babcock

Rob Babcock

Moderator
<font color='#8D38C9'>In reality I dont' think CD really did take off that fast. &nbsp;I remember reading last year the SACD/DVD-A were at about the same sales level for the amount of time they'd been out as CD was at the same time. &nbsp;It's possible I got bad info (and I can't remember where I read it, now) or it could have dropped off since then, but I doubt it has much.

When I was a freshman in college, I had maybe 40 CDs- everyone in ny residence hall was in awe of the size of my collection!
&nbsp; At that time there was only one other guy in my dorm that had a CD player at all, though there were several more the next year. &nbsp;This was about 3 years into my having a player, and I'm sure they were out for a while before a poor kid like me could have afforded one.

I also clearly remember the agony of having this super new technology with nothing to play on it. &nbsp;For the first whole year I had my player there was practically nothing to buy for it, and at the 2 year mark I'd begun to despair that most of my favorites would never be out on CD.

Now of course CD is the dominent form, but there are well over 1,100 SACDs out there and (I get conflicting #'s, but I think it's) 850 DVD-As, with more announced every week.

I would agree that many don't understand the higher rez discs & why they sound better, but I think a lot of the younger people "get" why surround is better.

But hey, if it remains a niche product, I can accept that. &nbsp;That would probably mean a steady stream of classical recordings at least, and I could live with that.</font>
 
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rgriffin25

rgriffin25

Moderator
<font color='#000000'>I really think that the lack of popular music is why these formats have not taken off. Another reason might be the lack of advertisement for either format. Since most people are starting to understand the benefit of a HT with their DVD player, all it would take is more mainstream music and some good ads and CD/MP3 would be history!</font>
 
Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
<font color='#000000'>Yep! I found out about it when auditioning B&W a few months ago. &nbsp;
But true!</font>
 
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A. Vivaldi

A. Vivaldi

Audioholic
<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In reality I dont' think CD really did take off that fast. &nbsp;I remember reading last year the SACD/DVD-A were at about the same sales level for the amount of time they'd been out as CD was at the same time.</td></tr></table>I've read before that CDs debut was around 1983/84, but they didn't come around to my town until about 1988. I remember the local record store had a big sale on all their remaining LPs for half off, and I bought a bunch of them. I guess it just depended on where you lived at the time. Why is it that they were so quick to faze out the LP but not the cassette? It all comes down to the "masses" problem again. Anyone with ears could tell that LPs sounded better than cassettes, but the masses wanted portablity, not sound quality. You could put them in your crappy walkman, or your crappy Realistic car stereo from Radio Shack, and it was pretty cool to slip a Metallica Tape with the writing faded out on it in your leather and take them to parties. Sound quality wasn't even a consideration. Just another example of bad... Oh no! I'm reliving the 80's again! Help!!! &nbsp;
</font>
 
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Shinerman

Shinerman

Senior Audioholic
<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
rgriffin25 : <font color='#000000'>I really think that the lack of popular music is why these formats have not taken off. Another reason might be the lack of advertisement for either format. Since most people are starting to understand the benefit of a HT with their DVD player, all it would take is more mainstream music and some good ads and CD/MP3 would be history!</font>
<font color='#000000'>I think that's a huge factor. &nbsp; There are very limited amounts of popular music out of these formats. &nbsp; Some, but still a fraction of what's out there. &nbsp; I would be interested to see how many of Billboard's Top 100 are released in these formats. &nbsp;I bet it's 10 to 15%, if that. &nbsp;

Another thing, DVD-A/SACD is a confusing format to understand. &nbsp; A lot of people don't understand the difference between regular 2 channel tracks, 5.1 DTS tracks, and DVD-A/SCAD tracks. &nbsp;Most people probably think 5.1 DTS and &nbsp;DVD-A/SACD are the same thing. &nbsp;It's still confusing to me.

And then there is the need for a new player, and additional cables. &nbsp;You looking at a minimum of $30 to $50 for 6 new cables for 5.1. &nbsp;

I would be willing to bet there are a ton of people out there right now with a digtial coax or toslink cable cable hooked up for audio that think they are getting DVD-A/SACD sound. &nbsp;They don't realized they need to 5.1 anolog cables.

DVD-A/SACD are not simple like CDs. &nbsp; When CDs came out, you boght the CD player, hooked it up just like a tape deck and put the CD in and pushed play. &nbsp; When you bought CDs they were clearly different than tapes and the salesperson could always direct you to them. &nbsp;I went into Circuit City the other day and asked where there DVD-A was located. &nbsp;The person said, "You mean like DVDs of concerts?". &nbsp;Ug! &nbsp;If only it could be so easy with the new formats. &nbsp;

Again, for the masses to accept it, it's got to be simple. &nbsp;

Shinerman</font>
 
Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
<font color='#000000'>Yep! When I was looking for a dvd player, I went into Best Buy and asked for a player that would play both SACD & DVD-A. The salesman said, "all of them do".
I asked for someone else. The next expert said, "you must be looking for a cd player".
</font>
 
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H

hopjohn

Full Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>The thing that annoys me the most is that the retail chain's personnel don't even know where in the store the stuff even is, when they do carry it. I wouldn't expect them to understand it or what is needed for playback, but you think that could at least point you to the shelf where those "funky surround discs" are in the store.

Also.... Barnes and Noble, which has always seemed to try and appeal to more sophisticated minds as many bookstores now do, would at least try to begin carrying a section of SACD / DVD-A works. Nope. They are missing the boat.

I've pledged to buy all my SACD / DVD-A online from now on. The selection, and knowledge base is far superior to retail chains. Those interested should try iclassics.com, arkivmusic.com, acousticsounds.com, and elusivedisc.com</font>
 
A. Vivaldi

A. Vivaldi

Audioholic
<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
hopjohn : The thing that annoys me the most is that the retail chain's personnel don't even know where in the store the stuff even is, when they do carry it. I wouldn't expect them to understand it or what is needed for playback, but you think that could at least point you to the shelf where those "funky surround discs" are in the store.

Also.... Barnes and Noble, which has always seemed to try and appeal to more sophisticated minds as many bookstores now do, would at least try to begin carrying a section of SACD / DVD-A works. Nope. They are missing the boat.

I've pledged to buy all my SACD / DVD-A online from now on. The selection, and knowledge base is far superior to retail chains. Those interested should try iclassics.com, arkivmusic.com, acousticsounds.com, and elusivedisc.com
Absolutly agreed. I was wondering what was up with Barnes & Noble anyway. Not only do they have no SACDs/DVD-As to think of, they also don't have many of the newer classical titles that are being released. My local stores still have the exact same CDs I remember seeing years ago. Of course if they lowered their ridiculous prices a bit people might actually buy the stuff, which in turn would cause them to pay attention to their turn over. B & N is a great place to find older recordings, Operas & movie soundtracks (a few actually out of print), but they seriously need to jump on the bandwagon here. I've had some luck finding a few good classical titles at Best Buy and my local "super" Borders, but all of the smaller Borders I've been to don't carry them. I guess I will also have to buy online to get what I really want. I'm familiar with iclassics.com and arkivmusic.com. Excellent online selections, arkivmusic.com appears to have every single Classical CD currently in print! I've never ordered from them yet, but plan to very soon!</font>
 
Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
<font color='#000000'>hopjohn, thanks for the sites!
</font>
 
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Shinerman

Shinerman

Senior Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>Just when I thought the sales people at Best Buy were in general, clueless and helpless, one of them showed promise. &nbsp;

Saturday, I went into a new BestBuy near my home. &nbsp;First time there. &nbsp;I walked in and went directly to the music sections. &nbsp;A employee walked up to me and asked if I needed help. &nbsp;I asked where the DVD-A section was. &nbsp;She pointed me to the DVDs. &nbsp;I said no, the DVD-A section. &nbsp;She had no clue. &nbsp;But, she asked what is DVD-A? &nbsp; We found the DVD-A section and she kept asking questions about DVD-A and SACD. &nbsp; I explained it the best I could and she thanked me for the info. &nbsp; She stated, "Now I know what these are and I won't look like a idiot to customers when they ask me for them." &nbsp; She really wanted to learn about the format and you could tell she actually wanted to help customers.

Who knew? &nbsp; I left a good word for her with a manager and he just kindof said, "Sure, OK?" &nbsp; &nbsp;Oh well, at least the new store has one good employee. &nbsp;

Just thought I would share my experience.

Shinerman</font>
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">They may both fail! As it stands right now the masses think CD is good enough, and some even think MP3 is sufficient. </td></tr></table>

While I am in full agreement with you regarding MP3, just what is the problem with existing CD other than it is not multichannel? &nbsp;I hear alot of complaints about the CD format, but usually no solid reasons against it.</font>
 
D

docferdie

Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>I would like to clarify my original question. I have a Denon 2200. I live near Mofi's warehouse and they have every DVD/Audio and SACD title in existence including import ones. There are certain titles available on both formats such as Ray Brown's Soular energy. Now without doing A/B listening tests for each title--as that would entail opening the packaging--which format should I expect to sound better. For that particular Title I went with the SACD version since it was actually playing in the store but the DVD-Audio version was 5 to 7 dollars cheaper. I would like to be able to buy one format over the other without having buyer regret about not buying the other one.
Thanks for the replies.</font>
 
Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
<font color='#000000'>5 to 7 dollars! That's a super size value meal with desert!

It would have to sound better on a full stomach!
</font>
 
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A. Vivaldi

A. Vivaldi

Audioholic
<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
gene : <table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">They may both fail! As it stands right now the masses think CD is good enough, and some even think MP3 is sufficient.
While I am in full agreement with you regarding MP3, just what is the problem with existing CD other than it is not multichannel?  I hear alot of complaints about the CD format, but usually no solid reasons against it.</td></tr></table>
The number one reason I think CD can be improved upon is because I'm an audio enthusiast nutball, not one of the average masses, and nothing is ever good enough for us right? So what's wrong with CD? As of about 8 years ago, not much, although first impressions last a long time I guess. Actually, I think CD is at the height of it's powers right now. It's ironic that when we finally perfect a format, we have to turn around and introduce something new. Now it'll probably be 5 years before SACD/DVD-A starts getting real good, if either one survives. When I got my first CDs when I was 16 or so, there was something about them I didn't like, and this was before any "audiophile" tendencies or knowledge about audio came into my life. It took me a while to get used to CD. The CDs that they've been making lately are excellent though. I don't think there's a whole lot wrong with the format if it's done right, as I have many superb CDs, just a lot of bad transfers and recordings going on. I think they had too much faith in CD at first and that it would sound good no matter what they did, but there was obviously much left to be desired. They've solved some of these problems with the more recent remasterings and so forth, but I still have a few problems with some CDs. If you're a classical listener you might notice (the people that bitch the most about CD seem to be classical and Jazz people). One is ear fatigue and CDs tendency to be over bright, and with so many cheesey bright CD/DVD players on the market it's even worse. I have a little tinnitus in one ear and CD just seems to hit those certain frequencies that pierce my ear and make it ring. I hardly ever get this when listening to live performances or LPs. I'm not saying that LPs are an accurate rendition of a live performance, but in a few aspects they come closer. I've been attending concerts lately. I was only 8 feet away from a live violinist playing Bach's famous Chaconne. It sounded smooth and warm without a trace of roughness or brightness, I came home and played the same thing on CD at close to the same volume and it bothered my ear. Choral vocals also sound very harsh on some CDs. I've also heard lots of heavy metal that sounded almost like static on CD. None of the metal LPs I had as a kid sounded like that. Mabye if I had perfect hearing I'd enjoy CD more, I don't know. Some argue that CD is so good that it has no fault of it's own, it's just revealing the flaws in the recording and your system. A few years ago I had nothing to counter that, until the High resolution formats came out. If they're supposed to sound so much better on any given system, then how can a mere CD be revealing it's limitations? Another problem are some CDs lack of a good bottom end. When comparing the domestic CD release of Metallica's ...And Justice For all to my Japanese LP the LPs bass was deeper and tighter, not to mention the distorted guitars seemed more true to life. My cheap cousin was so impressed that he bought the discs from me for $20 (this was a big deal for him, and I needed the cash at the time), and he didn't even own a turntable! Any fool could tell it was better, you didn't have to be an audiophool. Why was this? CD obviously has more highs, but what happened to the lows? When I play a LP my woofers move in and out, like their being stimulated or something. Is this because of distortion? Mabye some distortion can be a good thing then. With a CD the woofers just sit perfectly still, seemingly uninterested. Another problem with CD is they can be boring at times. Every time I prepare an LP to listen to I usually sit down and really listen to it. How many times have I put a CD in with the intention of listening to it and started doing other things instead? I can't say. Why do some CDs fail to captivate me? Much of my collection consists of CDs, so I'm no LP enthusiast, and I don't have any weird complexes holding me back from enjoying all that audio has to offer, besides the associated cash problems. There's simply too much good music coming out on CD to ignore. If you wanted some solid, scientific reasons why I feel CD has some problems I can't give it to you, and I'm sorry for the subjective hearsay, but if you came to me with a piece of paper with measurements from CDs and said, "This is what good sound is supposed to be, now adjust your ears accordingly", I'd have to say, "what is good sound"?</font>
 
Shinerman

Shinerman

Senior Audioholic
<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
docferdie : <font color='#000000'>I would like to clarify my original question. I have a Denon 2200. I live near Mofi's warehouse and they have every DVD/Audio and SACD title in existence including import ones. There are certain titles available on both formats such as Ray Brown's Soular energy. Now without doing A/B listening tests for each title--as that would entail opening the packaging--which format should I expect to sound better. For that particular Title I went with the SACD version since it was actually playing in the store but the DVD-Audio version was 5 to 7 dollars cheaper. I would like to be able to buy one format over the other without having buyer regret about not buying the other one.
Thanks for the replies.</font>
<font color='#000000'>Unfortunately there is no concrete answer to this. &nbsp;Some people think SACD is better, some think DVD-A is better. &nbsp;The fact is, &nbsp;is really depends on the individual recording whether it be on DVD-A or SACD. &nbsp; There are some albums on SACD that sound inferior to the same album on DVD-A and some DVD-As that sound inferior to SACD. &nbsp;

The best thing you could do is read reviews on particular titles. &nbsp;I am sure there are websites that compare the two formats in regard to the same albums. &nbsp;If that does not work, it might come down to trial and error.

Shinerman</font>
 
H

hiker54

Audioholic Intern
<font color='#000000'>I haven't yet formed an opinion on which format sounds consistently better, but I am starting to see a trend towards problems on the DVD-A side.

I've experienced titles from one Label (Deutsche Grammophon) refuse to play in any DVD-A player I've tried.

On a 5 disc (each purchased seperately) series of DVD-A's from another label, a sticker on the case and info in the booklet proclaimed 6 channels of sound. In fact, my player (Denon DVD5900) only detects 5 ----no .1 sub woofer channel.

On several discs, I have experienced abrupt, jarring and unmusical transitions betweens tracks as if periodically the opening note(s) are lost.


Hope these trends don't continue.

Has anyone else experienced any of the above?


Regards,

Hiker54</font>
 
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