D

docferdie

Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>Many companies are now releasing titles on both formats. Assuming ideal conditions which should sound better? Don't really want to buy both as theses discs are not returnable once opened. Would like to develop some sort of buying rule the same way that I always buy the Xbox/PC version of a video game instead of the PS2 or gamecube.</font>
 
Rob Babcock

Rob Babcock

Moderator
<font color='#8D38C9'>That's a thorny one, docferdie. &nbsp;The stereo rags pretty much like to rave the SACD as being better, but nearly everyone admits that DSD introduces high frequency distortion due to its noise shaping. &nbsp;Some people claim to hear this as a hardness or shrillness in the treble.

I hate to make any blanket statements as there aren't a lot of recordings yet in both formats. &nbsp;But my tentative feeling (based on the 50 or so discs I have in SACD & DVD-A) is that DVD-A & PCM sound better and more natural than SACD/DSD.

Let the flames begin!
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A. Vivaldi

A. Vivaldi

Audioholic
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Rob Babcock : <font color='#000000'>That's a thorny one, docferdie.  The stereo rags pretty much like to rave the SACD as being better, but nearly everyone admits that DSD introduces high frequency distortion due to its noise shaping.  Some people claim to hear this as a hardness or shrillness in the treble.

I hate to make any blanket statements as there aren't a lot of recordings yet in both formats.  But my tentative feeling (based on the 50 or so discs I have in SACD & DVD-A) is that DVD-A & PCM sound better and more natural than SACD/DSD.

Let the flames begin!
</font>
<font color='#000000'>No flames from me on sound quality. I've yet to hear a single DVD-A title, because I predict DVD-A is going to fail miserably, not because it sounds worse than SACD, but because the dumb masses are going to confuse them with regular DVD, not to mention their stupid oddly shaped jewel cases are incompatable with CD storage. SACD is easy to remember, and is unique to audio only, plus they look more like normal CDs and can be played in any CD player as long as they're hybrids, which more and more are becoming. SACD also vastly outnumbers DVD-A in avalible titles. That's why I haven't bothered with DVD-A. If I'm wrong about DVD-A, I'll just come back and erase my words and hope no one will remember!
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Rob Babcock

Rob Babcock

Moderator
<font color='#8D38C9'>Maybe. &nbsp;But the DVD Forum has just finished the spec for a hybrid double sided DVD-A that will have a CD layer on the other side.

Plus the DVD is the most successful piece of consumer electronics to ever be invented. &nbsp;Being confused with that is a good thing!
&nbsp; And every DVD-A in existance will play on a standard DVD player (they all have a compatible layer, be it DD or stereo PCM).

There are more titles right now for SACD, you're sure right there. &nbsp;But I think DVD-A is gaining some ground. &nbsp;SACD is pretty much marketed to audiophools only where I think DVD-A will eventually acheive more blue collar acceptance.

Of course, if I'm wrong I'll be back to edit this, too!


BTW, I got no axe to grind- I have a universal machine that plays 'em all. &nbsp;And both sound good. &nbsp;It's just that DVD-A sounds better. &nbsp;JMOHO, of course.</font>
 
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A. Vivaldi

A. Vivaldi

Audioholic
<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">not because it sounds worse than SACD, </td></tr></table>Just wanted to say that I didn't mean DVD-A sounded worse than SACD, just that it wouldn't be the only reason why I think It will fail.

As it stands now DVD-A to SACD is almost what DTS is to DD. Unless someone gets their butt in gear and starts restructuring the current business practices of the DVD-A gang.</font>
 
Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
<font color='#000000'>Just a thought.

The '04 Acura TL, high class Honda for those who may be living under a rock, comes stock with a DVD-Audio player!


They would look pretty stupid if it flops!
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A. Vivaldi

A. Vivaldi

Audioholic
<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
zumbo : Just a thought.

The '04 Acura TL, high class Honda for those who may be living under a rock, comes stock with a DVD-Audio player!


They would look pretty stupid if it flops!
You mean like the turntable that came with the 1957 Cadillac Eldorado Biarritz? Or the built-in 8 track player that came with the 1975 Eldo I used to own? Whaddya mean! That stuff is still very useful.
That 8-track to cassette adapter I got from radio shack worked ok, but it sure looked ridiculous though.


P.S. I used to have a 1975 Chrysler with a foot operated radio tuner! Now that's technology!</font>
 
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G

GeorgeM

Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>I hope that DVD-A survives and gains some momentum in the market. &nbsp;I just bought my first DVD-A, played it both 7-Channel Stereo and DTS:Neo:6 Music, and it was reasonably impressive!

However, I was just over to the Telarc site, www.telarc.com, and read the following:

"You only have two DVD-A releases listed on Telarc.com. When will more product be available?
Presently, we are not planning any further releases of DVD-A format discs. There are industry trends that lead us to put our support firmly behind the SACD format. We have long believed in the superiority of the DSD technology on which SACD is based, and for the ability to produce a backwards compatible (hybrid) product. We will continue to evaluate this developing market and keep our customers informed of new developments by way of our audiophile newsletter."

So it looks like they're headed down the SACD highway although the last sentence seems to indicate an element of openness to change in a 'developing market.'

-GeorgeM</font>
 
Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
<font color='#000000'>Hey, my wifes Infiniti came with Bo$e! That cr@p sounds like an 8-track! &nbsp;
</font>
 
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Rob Babcock

Rob Babcock

Moderator
<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
A. Vivaldi : <font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">not because it sounds worse than SACD,
Just wanted to say that I didn't mean DVD-A sounded worse than SACD, just that it wouldn't be the only reason why I think It will fail.

restructuring the current business practices of the DVD-A gang.</font></td></tr></table>
<font color='#8D38C9'>"As it stands now DVD-A to SACD is almost what DTS is to DD."

In a way I think that's an apt analogy- like DTS, I think DVD-A is the more upscale format with better sound. &nbsp;DTS is doing quite well, actually. &nbsp;At one point it looked like they were really on the ropes, and I actually wondered if they'd be around in 5 years. &nbsp;Now a lot of movies have DTS tracks, and the popular concencus is that they sound better. &nbsp;You see an emerging perception that DD is more for the masses where DTS is for the connoseur.

DTS has made major inroads too with their "DTS 24/96" discs.

As it stands, SACD has been marketed almost exclusively to the audiophool market. &nbsp;Many believe is sound better without ever comparing them. &nbsp;Very B(l)ose like!

I don't know which format will win or even survive. &nbsp;It's very likely IMO that SACD & DVD-A will continue to coexist just like DD & DTS have. &nbsp;But if I had a crystal ball I'd use it to pick lottery numbers, not divine the fate of audio formats!
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rgriffin25

rgriffin25

Moderator
<font color='#000000'>I believe that it goes a little deeper than what has been discussed thus far. Sure both formats are far superior to the compact disc. But, when compared side to side it is nearly impossible to decide which one is better. I would have to say that the quality of the recording / engineering of the disc has more to do with which one sounds better. I have heard some SACDs that sounded better than others.</font>
 
Rob Babcock

Rob Babcock

Moderator
<font color='#8D38C9'>Yeah, there may differences that will become more apparent in the long run, but for now both sound better than the CD. &nbsp;I buy both formats and will continue to do so. &nbsp;If something is available for both I'll probably buy the DVD-A over the SACD, but my Denon plays both.

I'm not sure what it is about human nature that makes us think this way, needed to rank stuff. &nbsp;Get a bunch of guys together and no matter what the topic, we have to start establishing the heirarchy. &nbsp;Be it sports teams, boxers, cars, women, speakers...we have to have a best and rate them all down from there.
&nbsp; Funny stuff, humans!

For my part, I'll buy both and enjoy the good sound. &nbsp;And continue to wring every last ounce of musical enjoyment out of my CDs, too.</font>
 
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rgriffin25

rgriffin25

Moderator
<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
zumbo : Hey, my wifes Infiniti came with Bo$e! That cr@p sounds like an 8-track! &nbsp;
Come on Zumbo, you know if you hooked up B0Se to your Yamaha you would be in love!!
&nbsp;
</font>
 
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H

hopjohn

Full Audioholic
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Rob Babcock : <font color='#000000'>I'm not sure what it is about human nature that makes us think this way, needed to rank stuff.  Get a bunch of guys together and no matter what the topic, we have to start establishing the heirarchy.  Be it sports teams, boxers, cars, women, speakers...we have to have a best and rate them all down from there.
  Funny stuff, humans!</font>
<font color='#000000'>I'm just glad that no one has jumped in here and started debating the superiority of vinyl over these new formats....or have I just stirred up this hornet's nest? Anyway I wouldn't agree, the inconvenience of vinyl is such a turnoff, sound quality becomes secondary.</font>
 
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A. Vivaldi

A. Vivaldi

Audioholic
<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't know which format will win or even survive. &nbsp;It's very likely IMO that SACD & DVD-A will continue to coexist just like DD & DTS have.</td></tr></table> They may both fail! As it stands right now the masses think CD is good enough, and some even think MP3 is sufficient.
<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You see an emerging perception that DD is more for the masses where DTS is for the connoseur.
</td></tr></table>Yes. No matter what you may think sounds better, those in the know are always at the mercy of the masses. Just like when they picked VHS over Beta, even though Beta was smaller and had a slightly better picture quality.<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
I buy both formats and will continue to do so.</td></tr></table>I wish I could do the same, but my always limited funds dictates that I can't back a loser!</font>
 
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A. Vivaldi

A. Vivaldi

Audioholic
<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
hopjohn : <table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote (Rob Babcock @ April 06 2004,11:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm not sure what it is about human nature that makes us think this way, needed to rank stuff.  Get a bunch of guys together and no matter what the topic, we have to start establishing the heirarchy.  Be it sports teams, boxers, cars, women, speakers...we have to have a best and rate them all down from there.
  Funny stuff, humans!
I'm just glad that no one has jumped in here and started debating the superiority of vinyl over these new formats....or have I just stirred up this hornet's nest? Anyway I wouldn't agree, the inconvenience of vinyl is such a turnoff, sound quality becomes secondary.</td></tr></table>
True, but when I'm finding still sealed or otherwise mint condition imported Classical LPs, complete Operas and boxed sets for anywhere between 50 cents to $ 5.00 a pop, they start to become VERY convenient, and sound pretty dang good too! I've discovered lots of great music this way. Who the hell want's to pay $16.99 or more for some CD of a composers works that they're not even sure they'll like? The LP has been a good friend to me.
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Rob Babcock

Rob Babcock

Moderator
<font color='#8D38C9'>You don't have to back the winner- buy a universal player, like I did.  Or buy a cheaper one, like the Pioneer DV-563A.  Cripes, it's $140!
  If one format wins out and kills the other off, well you can still play them on your universal machine.  Someday it may crap out, but you'll likely always be able to find something to play it on.  Hey, you can still buy new 'tables, cassette decks & LD players.  And it's not too hard to find something to play your 8-tracks on it you want to!


Personally I think the day of having just one or two dominant formats if over, anyway.  The LP had a monopoly for quite awhile, and the CD has had a good run.  But I just don't think the world is the same now.  Technology is more pervasive now.  There may never be a universal carrier like the LP or CD again.</font>
 
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A. Vivaldi

A. Vivaldi

Audioholic
<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
Rob Babcock : You don't have to back the winner- buy a universal player, like I did.  Or buy a cheaper one, like the Pioneer DV-563A.  Cripes, it's $140!
  If one format wins out and kills the other off, well you can still play them on your universal machine.  Someday it may crap out, but you'll likely always be able to find something to play it on.  Hey, you can still buy new 'tables, cassette decks & LD players.  And it's not too hard to find something to play your 8-tracks on it you want to!


Personally I think the day of having just one or two dominant formats if over, anyway.  The LP had a monopoly for quite awhile, and the CD has had a good run.  But I just don't think the world is the same now.  Technology is more pervasive now.  There may never be a universal carrier like the LP or CD again.
Pioneer??? Yuck! Actually I have a Sony DVP-NC685V SACD/DVD player that cost me less than $200, and sounds pretty good, but only a temporary deal. I can't wait until I get a higher end ES model, and possibly a separate DVD-A player, if the ES model I choose is SACD only. I don't like the thought of having a unit that does two many things at once. Quality suffers when compromises are made, unless you spend over $2000. My Sony only has a lousy 12 bit DAC for CD for instance. I know I can do better than that. I might also decide to get a Arcam or Rotel SACD player if and when they come out with one, currently they're both backing DVD-A.</font>
 
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Rob Babcock

Rob Babcock

Moderator
<font color='#8D38C9'>I think that's something of an exaggeration, AV. It's not like they're playing tapes & records, or making toast & painting your house!
&nbsp; They both play the same silver disc, and while SACD uses DSD to hold music, it's essentially a DVD. &nbsp;DSD is even possible on a regular DVD is someone wanted to do it. &nbsp;There's no reason on earth that a universal can't be as good as any other player- reviews of the Linn Unidisk and Esoteric Audio universal player say they are in fact among the best players in the world for either format. &nbsp;Yes, they're very expensive, as you say. &nbsp;Yet TAS has recently raved the Denon DVD-2200, basically saying it competed with any player up to $1000 (although MSRP is only $600). &nbsp;I myself have one and have not heard it bettered by a standalone player under $1k.

Life is too short and music is too important; don't cheat yourself out of any enjoyement you can get fromthe music. &nbsp;Buy a cheap DVD-A & a cheap SACD if you must!

BTW, you ought not turn up your nose at the Pioneer- it's good for the price, and in the APL-modded form it's turning the high end on its ear! &nbsp;APL is selling the modded player for under $600, and word on the street is it's stiff competition for players up to $2.5k! &nbsp;Check out APLs forum and the discussion of this player here.</font>
 
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A. Vivaldi

A. Vivaldi

Audioholic
<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
Rob Babcock : I think that's something of an exaggeration, AV. It's not like they're playing tapes & records, or making toast & painting your house!
  They both play the same silver disc, and while SACD uses DSD to hold music, it's essentially a DVD.  DSD is even possible on a regular DVD is someone wanted to do it.  There's no reason on earth that a universal can't be as good as any other player- reviews of the Linn Unidisk and Esoteric Audio universal player say they are in fact among the best players in the world for either format.  Yes, they're very expensive, as you say.  Yet TAS has recently raved the Denon DVD-2200, basically saying it competed with any player up to $1000 (although MSRP is only $600).  I myself have one and have not heard it bettered by a standalone player under $1k.

Life is too short and music is too important; don't cheat yourself out of any enjoyement you can get fromthe music.  Buy a cheap DVD-A & a cheap SACD if you must!

BTW, you ought not turn up your nose at the Pioneer- it's good for the price, and in the APL-modded form it's turning the high end on its ear!  APL is selling the modded player for under $600, and word on the street is it's stiff competition for players up to $2.5k!  Check out APLs forum and the discussion of this player here.
I checked out the AC website. I really like your avatar of Leighton's "The Accolade". I have it hanging on my wall! I gotta say though that the stuff there talking about is way over my head. I just like to go up to a unit or system, push play, it sounds good, I buy it. No wonder you think life is too short if your into audio that much.
I considered getting the Denon 2900 before, but I'm not sure what kind of system I want to build yet. I read a review on it and they said (TAS?) it had excellent DVD-A and SACD but marginal redbook CD performance, which translated means "overly bright mass market CD sound". As for buying modified stuff, I have superstitions about that. Once you start messing around with complicated things, there somehow never quite the same (in Pioneers case though that would be good). They can give you lots of problems, as most people I ever knew who modified the hell out of their cars or computers had, and which were passed down to me after I bought them! Who is this guy? Does he guarantee his work? Is he even going to be around two or three years from now? I'd rather just buy a unit from a quality company that made it good in the first place.</font>
 
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