Dumb question about bi-amping

[Duffinator]

Using the amps in a receiver and a seperate amp at the same time should work, there are a couple of forum members doing just that. I don't think I'd do it but it should work. Like I said earlier I'd just get a good external amp for the fronts and not bi-amp.

 

[Votrax]

The pre-outs will work simultaneously with your speaker outputs. If used in this configuration the only way to balance an external amplifier is if it has a gain adjustment.

 

[mulester7]

.....guys, a pre-amped millivolted signal source, can be run, in and out, of 25 whatevers, processors-eq's, before it's amplified, period....and, sure, you can run your L&R mains off the receiver's power, and also take the pre-amped signal out of the L&R pre-outs to a slave amp for speakers, used wherever....

.....let me say this....one of the best things you guys with surround receivers could do, would be to take the signal out of the L&R pre-outs to a slave amp "with serious headroom" that is pushing paralleled front mains....I'm speaking of two exact matching mains, on each side of the front, sitting side-by-side, touching, paralleled, being pushed by serious headroom for tightness/punch in the low end and fullness overall, with a point of imaging as big as a beachball....and "serious headroom", has NOTHING to do with an increase from 120 to 200.....

.....hey, what takes the most watts to reproduce, highs or lows?.....sure, lows....Buck made a great statement day before yesterday when he said an amp section with only a few watts tends to "splatter" the EXTREMES of the signal at reference levels, the highs and lows....I especially notice it in the lows with little authority or tight punch even approaching MUD....this is NOT snake oil, PERIOD, Gentlemen.....

.....I'll even say this, as I become exasperated with reasonings here NOT predicated on having let personal ears decide....ANYONE, order a QSC RMX 2450 that has a CLEAN and TRANSPARENT "500 at 8", unstrapped, two sides, for a PAULTRY $599....hook it up to your mains, and bring a favorite source you have listened to a bazillion times to reference levels....if you don't hear a credible difference as per coming to LIFE with FULLNESS and TIGHTNESS, send it back, and I will pay you for shipping BOTH directions, which should be around 60-75....you will have lost SQUATOLA....someone PLEASE take me up on this offer....correct, I'll only pay once, haha....but I won't be paying even once, especially, if paralleled double front mains are used which are being flavored with presence from the accent speakers.....

.....you surround receiver guys who want the center speaker loudest for a point of reference to the TV, I don't understand this....I would rather have imaging filling up the middle about 10 feet wide covering the TV....I've got no center speaker....I've currently got two front mains rated 6 ohms each on the right side front, paralleled, being pushed by about 950 watts of 3 ohm headroom from one side of a K2....with the rear speakers accenting the right side paralleled front, I'm peeing down both legs in anticipation of adding two like-mains on the left side, and the right side will stay as is until the left fronts show up, that's all I can say....I didn't actually need a center speaker when I only had one main on each side of the front either.....

 

[Duffinator]

.......I'll even say this, as I become exasperated with reasonings here NOT predicated on having let personal ears decide....ANYONE, order a QSC RMX 2450 that has a CLEAN and TRANSPARENT "500 at 8", unstrapped, two sides, for a PAULTRY $599....hook it up to your mains, and bring a favorite source you have listened to a bazillion times to reference levels....if you don't hear a credible difference as per coming to LIFE with FULLNESS and TIGHTNESS, send it back, and I will pay you for shipping BOTH directions, which should be around 60-75....you will have lost SQUATOLA....someone PLEASE take me up on this offer....correct, I'll only pay once, haha....but I won't be paying even once, especially, if paralleled double front mains are used which are being flavored with presence from the accent speakers.....

Ok, I'm seriously considering your offer. Here's the link in case somebody else wants to do it.

http://www.qscaudio.com/products/amps/rmx/rmx.htm

 

[mtrycrafts]

Buck made a great statement day before yesterday when he said an amp section with only a few watts tends to "splatter" the EXTREMES of the signal at reference levels, the highs and lows....I especially notice it in the lows with little authority or tight punch even approaching MUD....this is NOT snake oil, PERIOD, Gentlemen.....[/b]


HUH??? Please explain what is stated above.

 

[mulester7]

Buck made a great statement day before yesterday when he said an amp section with only a few watts tends to "splatter" the EXTREMES of the signal at reference levels, the highs and lows....I especially notice it in the lows with little authority or tight punch even approaching MUD....this is NOT snake oil, PERIOD, Gentlemen.....[/b]


HUH??? Please explain what is stated above.

.....Mtrycrafts, a decent explanation to me would point out that headroom is important, especially, at reference levels, and serious headroom brings the most marked effects.....the low end will be tighter and cleaner....the mids and highs will be fatter and fuller, and also, tighter and cleaner.....

.....The Duffinator, you make good sense with your posts....what speakers will you be pushing with the QSC amp, and do you have four speakers just alike on the premises?....over.....

 

[patnshan]

If you really think you need more power for your new speakers forget the bi-amp and get a good seperate amp for your front speaker. I'd wait and use your new speakers first and see how they sound.

This was just a hypothetical question in my quest to actually learn how things work and what is possible. I would certainly not buy another amp unless I felt the need (well, maybe I would just so I could tell everyone I did it).
I truly appreciate the responses. I am learing something here everyday. I take care of sick people for a living and have NO training in electronics except for these forums. There is a wealth of information here and I am grateful for it.

Pat

 

[Duffinator]

.....The Duffinator, you make good sense with your posts....what speakers will you be pushing with the QSC amp, and do you have four speakers just alike on the premises?....over.....

I only have one pair of front mains, no room for more speakers. But I've been toying with the idea of a seperate amp for sometime and am always willing to look at something a bit different and that presents a good value. I've never heard of QSC Audio before and it looks like their stuff has a lot of power. But their website states Class H amp, not sure what that is? I've also been looking at the Outlaw monoblocks but they are class D and switch? Not sure of that technology either. If anybody can explain the differences I'd appreciate it. The amp idea is really upgrade 2 with 1 being new speakers. Probably going to wait until early next year as I need to let my wife get past my recent SVS PB12-ISD upgrade. That sub sure makes my Mirage speakers sound a lot better.

 

[mtrycrafts]

.....Mtrycrafts, a decent explanation to me would point out that headroom is important, especially, at reference levels, and serious headroom brings the most marked effects.....the low end will be tighter and cleaner....the mids and highs will be fatter and fuller, and also, tighter and cleaner.....

Ah, so now we are talking power for the peaks? You really think your tweeter will stand 100watts or more, not counting the dynamic power peaks? Don't forget all the distportion that comes from th espeakers as you apply more and more power. Good amps will have plenty of dynamic headroom in midband on up.

Better have a good supplier for replacement tweeters

If you want power for the lows, buy a good sub.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

A different question

mtrycrafts:
Ah, so now we are talking power for the peaks? You really think your tweeter will stand 100watts or more, not counting the dynamic power peaks? Don't forget all the distportion that comes from th espeakers as you apply more and more power. Good amps will have plenty of dynamic headroom in midband on up.
Better have a good supplier for replacement tweeters

If you want power for the lows, buy a good sub.

Go to this link:
http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?keywords=horn+tweeter

The tweeters near the bottom handle huge amounts of power. Distortion rears its ugly head first in the tweeter. You say good amps. That's a broad statement. What signifies a "good amp."

As far as lows, what do you do with 60Hz to 800Hz? Buy two subs? I wouldn't rely on the $125 Insignia 100 watt surround receiver to drive dual 8" midwoofers in a set of towers rated at 4 ohms and 83dB, would you?

I know my Denon 3805 $1199 receiver has trouble pushing my Polk RTi10's rated at 4 ohms with dual 7" woofers. That's why you see guys who own the RTi10's with triple 7" woofers running separate amps. Is the Denon 3805 a "good amp?"

Good amps are hard to find in most of your surround receivers, especially when trying to drive difficult loads.

A better question may be why don't more speaker mfg's make their units with higher spl's rated at 8 ohms?

 

[mulester7]

I only have one pair of front mains, no room for more speakers. But I've been toying with the idea of a seperate amp for sometime and am always willing to look at something a bit different and that presents a good value. I've never heard of QSC Audio before and it looks like their stuff has a lot of power. But their website states Class H amp, not sure what that is? I've also been looking at the Outlaw monoblocks but they are class D and switch? Not sure of that technology either. If anybody can explain the differences I'd appreciate it. The amp idea is really upgrade 2 with 1 being new speakers. Probably going to wait until early next year as I need to let my wife get past my recent SVS PB12-ISD upgrade. That sub sure makes my Mirage speakers sound a lot better.

.....Duffinator, concerning your Mirage speakers, what ohmage are they rated, what wattage are they rated to handle continuous, and what are you pushing them with now?....I believe I remember your setup from the members system forum....didn't you have two mains on both sides of a big screen?.....

 

[getshorted]

Bi Amped Denon...

I bi-amped my Denon reciever with an older Denon AVR 970....

Since I live in an upstairs apartment - I wanted to be able REALLY control the sub volume! So now, one amp, the 1187 controls the entire room while the 970 only has the subs hooked up. At night, I turn the bottom amp completely off to reduce the BANGING on the walls from the neighbors!

I hope this helps...

Ray

 

[mulester7]

I bi-amped my Denon reciever with an older Denon AVR 970....

Since I live in an upstairs apartment - I wanted to be able REALLY control the sub volume! So now, one amp, the 1187 controls the entire room while the 970 only has the subs hooked up. At night, I turn the bottom amp completely off to reduce the BANGING on the walls from the neighbors!

I hope this helps...

Ray

.....Getshorted, ALL input helps....thanks.....

 

[mulester7]

Ah, so now we are talking power for the peaks? You really think your tweeter will stand 100watts or more, not counting the dynamic power peaks? Don't forget all the distportion that comes from th espeakers as you apply more and more power. Good amps will have plenty of dynamic headroom in midband on up.

Better have a good supplier for replacement tweeters

If you want power for the lows, buy a good sub.

.....Mtrycrafts, distortion is what kills speaker elements, not clean watts.....

 

[mulester7]

.....Gentlemen, I want a report on this QSC RMX 2450....yes, it is rated H with 3-tier design....all the more powerful QSC amps are rated H....I'll sweeten the pot....you send it back, I'll pay both ways, that has already been stated....here's the new part as I want a report....you keep it, which you will, and I'll pay for what it set you back to be shipped to you....come on now, boys, that's whippin' my butt like a RENTED government mule.....

 

[mtrycrafts]

Go to this link:
http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?keywords=horn+tweeter

The tweeters near the bottom handle huge amounts of power. Distortion rears its ugly head first in the tweeter.

Are these the tweeters in yoru speaker?
I looked at 1, the first one. No distortion number given. Yes, it has 100 watts capability but it hits 111 dB spl at 25 watts. You have music that loud in the tweeter??? even at the peaks?



I wouldn't rely on the $125 Insignia 100 watt surround receiver to drive dual 8" midwoofers in a set of towers rated at 4 ohms and 83dB, would you?

Ah, the imfamous nominal impedance game. You think it has that Z to 800 Hz? It may, or most likely it is 8 ohms or above. Same for sensitivity. That is an overall averaged sensitivity, right? Not to 800Hz. But, just in case, 20 dB spl gives you 103 dB spl, no dynamic power used, right? I think your sub is th eone that needs all that power.

Is the Denon 3805 a "good amp?"

Yep. sure is. Maybe your friends like it really loud. Maybe they do need help then.


A better question may be why don't more speaker mfg's make their units with higher spl's rated at 8 ohms?

Yes, that is a very good question indeed. Good one to ask them why? Must not be a very good design?

 

[mtrycrafts]

.....Mtrycrafts, distortion is what kills speaker elements, not clean watts.....

Distortion that comes from the speakers, not the amp as spl is incresed. Very audible.

 

[mulester7]

Distortion that comes from the speakers, not the amp as spl is incresed. Very audible.

.....but if the speakers have elements and crossovers in them that are half-way decent quality, distortion doesn't come from the speakers....it comes from what is fed to the speakers, and lack of watts means distortion can come quickly from the amp being overextended and out of control....luckily for the tweeters, distortion is manifested most from the element that is demanding the most watts when an amp section is overextended, the one that is attempting to move the most air, the woofer....not that ALL the elements aren't producing heat, either.....

.....here's one that will bring a few swinging out of the rafters....your speakers will take a good many more watts than what they are rated, as long as the distortion, rather lack of it, allows.....

 

[mtrycrafts]

but if the speakers have elements and crossovers in them that are half-way decent quality, distortion doesn't come from the speakers...

But of course you know that subs are measured and rated at 10% speaker distortion, not amp distortion, very good subs, minus the servo Velo.

So, speakers do impose their own distortion. Maybe not the crossover parts but the driver itself, that is still audible distortion. so, if subs have such high level of distortion, why not the other drivers [/b]

 

[Duffinator]

.....Duffinator, concerning your Mirage speakers, what ohmage are they rated, what wattage are they rated to handle continuous, and what are you pushing them with now?....I believe I remember your setup from the members system forum....didn't you have two mains on both sides of a big screen?.....

Mule, sorry for the late response but I've been busy with fantasy football for the past several days.

My Mirage 595is speakers are rated at 6 ohms nominal down to 4 ohms minimum and with a maximum power rating of 125 watts. I have a Denon 3805 that does not seem to have any problems powering them. Like most AV receivers it does get warm but not enough to fry an egg.

Here's my setup:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=84344#post84344