Done with the soundbars, looking for a little guidance.

[Evil Milkman]

As the title states, I'm done with my Sonos Arc. It was "nice" and convenient for a little while, but I've got the space and budget for something legit now. I've been lurking this forum and a couple others for a couple of weeks now, and feel like I've got a pretty good grasp on what I need, but I'm not quite sure if I'm going overboard or if I'm on the right track.

I'm trying to put together a modest 3.1 system for my basement where I mainly watch sports and tv 50% of the time, movies 40% of the time, with some occasional gaming to fill out the last 10%. The room is roughly 26L x 16W x 9H with the TV and console being on one of the long walls. My spot on the couch is about 11 feet away from the TV, but the way the room is setup I can watch TV anywhere in the room comfortably.

Realistically, I won't be listening to much music on this, and I'll be honest that tower speakers finish the asthetic of the room so I definitely want to keep them and eventually I would like to add 2 more wall mounted surround speakers. I like bass when I'm watching a movie, but I was originally considering just going 3.0 and skipping the sub so that's probably on the bottom of my priority list.

Initially, I had decided on a Denon X3800H, a pair of KEF Q550s with a Q650C, and the SVS PB3000, but while I was price shopping around, I started looking 950s and the R2C/R6 and realized I could really open up my wallet a bit more on this. If I bounce up to the R2C and I going to be kicking myself down the line for not spending an extra $600 to get the R6? And I guess same question with the 550 to 950 or 950 to R5/7? I guess I've been stuck on the receiver as well deciding between the x3800 and the x4800.

I tend to go a little overkill on things, but I feel like with speakers it's probably better to spend more than to cheap out? Thanks and any advice is appreciated!

 

[TLS Guy]

As the title states, I'm done with my Sonos Arc. It was "nice" and convenient for a little while, but I've got the space and budget for something legit now. I've been lurking this forum and a couple others for a couple of weeks now, and feel like I've got a pretty good grasp on what I need, but I'm not quite sure if I'm going overboard or if I'm on the right track.

I'm trying to put together a modest 3.1 system for my basement where I mainly watch sports and tv 50% of the time, movies 40% of the time, with some occasional gaming to fill out the last 10%. The room is roughly 26L x 16W x 9H with the TV and console being on one of the long walls. My spot on the couch is about 11 feet away from the TV, but the way the room is setup I can watch TV anywhere in the room comfortably.

Realistically, I won't be listening to much music on this, and I'll be honest that tower speakers finish the asthetic of the room so I definitely want to keep them and eventually I would like to add 2 more wall mounted surround speakers. I like bass when I'm watching a movie, but I was originally considering just going 3.0 and skipping the sub so that's probably on the bottom of my priority list.

Initially, I had decided on a Denon X3800H, a pair of KEF Q550s with a Q650C, and the SVS PB3000, but while I was price shopping around, I started looking 950s and the R2C/R6 and realized I could really open up my wallet a bit more on this. If I bounce up to the R2C and I going to be kicking myself down the line for not spending an extra $600 to get the R6? And I guess same question with the 550 to 950 or 950 to R5/7? I guess I've been stuck on the receiver as well deciding between the x3800 and the x4800.

I tend to go a little overkill on things, but I feel like with speakers it's probably better to spend more than to cheap out? Thanks and any advice is appreciated!

There is no such thing as speakers that are too good. It is to a very large extent, if not entirely, that the speakers determine the quality of your system. Moving up to the META range will be a very worthwhile expenditure.

You need one or two subs. You are very wise to go for a 3.1 or 3.2 system. There are far too many surround systems in unsuitable rooms. A first class 3.1 or 3.2 system will meet your needs very well.

 

[lovinthehd]

The speakers are key, so take your time and experience some speakers. Some reason only Kef? No other speaker experience other than Sonos otherwise? The ideal center would be same as left and right but that works best with projection with an acoustically transparent screen, not so good with tvs, so comprised horizontal center speakers are fairly normal. Try this article https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/center-channel-designs-1

Subs if you buy good performing ones don't need an audition particularly. Takes a pretty good sized tower with large capable bass drivers IMO to even compete with subs, and even combining such still has advantages. If you were music only that would lean me more on the trying without subs thing. SVS works but so does Hsu, Rhythmik, RSL and some others too.

The differences between the 3800 and 4800 are fairly minor (the additional power for the 4800 is fairly negligible but then again having a slightly larger power supply wouldn't hurt...) and both have a full set of pre-outs for external amps for more significant power if needed so I lean towards the 3800 for better value. A good deal on a 4800 would work, too. This is a good site to run avr feature comparisons zkelectronics.com.

Oh and welcome to the forum! Good luck!

 

[Evil Milkman]

The speakers are key, so take your time and experience some speakers. Some reason only Kef? No other speaker experience other than Sonos otherwise? The ideal center would be same as left and right but that works best with projection with an acoustically transparent screen, not so good with tvs, so comprised horizontal center speakers are fairly normal. Try this article https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/center-channel-designs-1

Subs if you buy good performing ones don't need an audition particularly. Takes a pretty good sized tower with large capable bass drivers IMO to even compete with subs, and even combining such still has advantages. If you were music only that would lean me more on the trying without subs thing. SVS works but so does Hsu, Rhythmik, RSL and some others too.

The differences between the 3800 and 4800 are fairly minor (the additional power for the 4800 is fairly negligible but then again having a slightly larger power supply wouldn't hurt...) and both have a full set of pre-outs for external amps for more significant power if needed so I lean towards the 3800 for better value. A good deal on a 4800 would work, too. This is a good site to run avr feature comparisons zkelectronics.com.

Oh and welcome to the forum! Good luck!

I was recommended KEF by a friend, so when I went to BB that's what I checked out there and I think it stuck with me. I also went to Nebraska Furniture Mart and listened to a couple of different B&W and Polk sets, but I wasn't able to distinguish too much of a difference and I felt like I was trying to be upsold. The KEF setup was something that I figured would fit together pretty easily, 950s/R2C and I wouldn't have to worry about not knowing what I was doing. But I'm definitely not opposed to other brands of speakers, like I said though, the KEF is just what has been stuck in my head.

I figure the sub(s) will be the last thing I get, just because I'm still getting my last pieces of furniture, rugs, etc and I'm still not sure where it will go. I've read articles on placing it, but with my room design I don't think I have too many options.

I was leaning in that direction on the receiver as well, so I feel pretty good about locking up that decision. Thanks for your input!

 

[Evil Milkman]

There is no such thing as speakers that are too good. It is to a very large extent, if not entirely, that the speakers determine the quality of your system. Moving up to the META range will be a very worthwhile expenditure.

You need one or two subs. You are very wise to go for a 3.1 or 3.2 system. There are far too many surround systems in unsuitable rooms. A first class 3.1 or 3.2 system will meet your needs very well.

I keep reading that the center speaker is the most important of them all, if I do decide to stick with the KEF and went with the Q950, would the R6 Meta dwarf the L/R?

I'm having trouble imagining a placement for 2 subs, so it will most likely be 1 and it will have to be behind the couch, but I guess if I could fit 1 back there, I could always fit 2.

 

[lovinthehd]

I was recommended KEF by a friend, so when I went to BB that's what I checked out there and I think it stuck with me. I also went to Nebraska Furniture Mart and listened to a couple of different B&W and Polk sets, but I wasn't able to distinguish too much of a difference and I felt like I was trying to be upsold. The KEF setup was something that I figured would fit together pretty easily, 950s/R2C and I wouldn't have to worry about not knowing what I was doing. But I'm definitely not opposed to other brands of speakers, like I said though, the KEF is just what has been stuck in my head.

I figure the sub(s) will be the last thing I get, just because I'm still getting my last pieces of furniture, rugs, etc and I'm still not sure where it will go. I've read articles on placing it, but with my room design I don't think I have too many options.

I was leaning in that direction on the receiver as well, so I feel pretty good about locking up that decision. Thanks for your input!

I was wondering if BB was involved. Kef is a fine brand, but I have little experience (and when I did it was before their concentric drivers became more their norm). While there's a BB about 45 miles away, it doesn't have anything setup for speaker listening, just the open warehouse floor (which is fairly useless IMO plus they don't have Kef from what I remember, more Klipsch). These days I'm not shopping much, last picked up some decent JBLs on the net at a great sale price (with ability to return easily). I like Ascend speakers a lot, too. Might look thru various of the reviews done here on AH to get some flavor/comparisons somewhat.

A large/capable 3-way center is a good way to go, and I wouldn't worry particularly about if it was larger than the L/R speakers particularly for your use, as the center is going to be used a lot.

If just one sub, one nearfield (behind your couch) is a good way to go for max performance without worrying too much about placement. Dual subs are more about being placed in different parts of the room to allow for better smoothing of response (rather than output).

 

[Teetertotter?]

If you read my below Signature, you can see what I have settled upon for my 5.1 system. These are existing speakers I purchased some time ago, except the PSB center channel, which is only 2+ years old.

Collecting dust, I have a pair of ELAC 2.0, B6.2 with Center Channel, a pair of JBL Stage A130, a pair of Polk S-15 and 2 Klipsch center channels.

My mismatched 5.1 system, sounds the best for DD movies, TV programs, and some MP3 internet music. I have the dynamic plus distinct clarity sound, whether at low or high volume. The crossover is adjusted t0 80HZ. The PSB Imagine XC center channel was a real game changer. Dune 2 sound was perfect, coming through the speakers. I DO NOT like neutral sounding speakers for movies and least, for pop music. The subwoofer is vital for bookshelf speakers. I like sound to come A LIVE for my taste, when soundtrack demands.

My sole basement HT room is 8 X 12. 55" 4K TV viewing is 7 feet along with main speakers at same distance.

Just my taste for type speakers I prefer. There are some nice speaker reviews on the internet @Evil Milkman. Read up on them for preference.

 

[Oddball]

I am sure that KEF will work great and these are some really good speakers.

If you are looking at issues with sub placement, perhaps you could look into GoldenEar powered towers. A pair of Triton One.R would be about $2K more than the a pair of Q950s but then could get by without the sub/s to save space. It is not just about bass with those, they are overall excellent speakers. They would not go sub-sonic but depending on the room would go to low 20-ies with great authority. GoldenEar would also have their Super centre Reference to go with them, and that one is roughly the same price as KEF R6 Meta.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Many of us have bought speakers, then sold those speakers, then bought new speakers, an sold those speakers, etc.

So unless you want to do the same thing many of us have done, definitely figure out what's important to you and don't buy until you are very certain.

You already said you want TOWERS, not bookshelf. So that's one thing out of the way. I think most people also want towers, not bookshelf for their main speakers.

A few other factors to consider.

1. Speakers with more linear frequency response (+/- 3dB, +/-2dB, +/-1dB) vs less linear response (+/-4dB, +/-5dB, etc.).

2. Pride of ownership and aesthetics. You want speakers from big name brands? Companies who make flagship speakers that cost $60K - $300K like KEF, RBH, B&W, Legacy Audio, Revel, Focal, Dynaudio, MartinLogan, Monitor Audio, etc.

3. Customer Service. You want to be able to call someone on the phone and talk to a person? Or you want to write an email and maybe get a response a week later?

There are other factors.

 

[Evil Milkman]

I was wondering if BB was involved. Kef is a fine brand, but I have little experience (and when I did it was before their concentric drivers became more their norm). While there's a BB about 45 miles away, it doesn't have anything setup for speaker listening, just the open warehouse floor (which is fairly useless IMO plus they don't have Kef from what I remember, more Klipsch). These days I'm not shopping much, last picked up some decent JBLs on the net at a great sale price (with ability to return easily). I like Ascend speakers a lot, too. Might look thru various of the reviews done here on AH to get some flavor/comparisons somewhat.

A large/capable 3-way center is a good way to go, and I wouldn't worry particularly about if it was larger than the L/R speakers particularly for your use, as the center is going to be used a lot.

If just one sub, one nearfield (behind your couch) is a good way to go for max performance without worrying too much about placement. Dual subs are more about being placed in different parts of the room to allow for better smoothing of response (rather than output).

Thanks for the advice, those Ascend Sierras caught my eye and I think tomorrow I might go driving around to find a spot to listen to those and a few other things. And if I go with KEF, I think I've decided that I do want to go with the more powerful center like the R6 even if I get the Q950s, though I can get the non-meta R5 for the same price, but that makes me believe even more that I need to get a more powerful center.

 

[Evil Milkman]

I am sure that KEF will work great and these are some really good speakers.

If you are looking at issues with sub placement, perhaps you could look into GoldenEar powered towers. A pair of Triton One.R would be about $2K more than the a pair of Q950s but then could get by without the sub/s to save space. It is not just about bass with those, they are overall excellent speakers. They would not go sub-sonic but depending on the room would go to low 20-ies with great authority. GoldenEar would also have their Super center Reference to go with them, and that one is roughly the same price as KEF R6 Meta.

Wow, those GoldenEar seem real nice and ideally, that would be what I am looking for in a 3.0 setup that is a bad mamma jamma that packs a punch with the sleek black asthetic. Aside from those specifically, is there another set of speakers similar to that that you would recommend? I was looking at the Polk Legend L800 and wasn't sure if it was in line with something like this, but the One.R definitely seems like a step up.

 

[Evil Milkman]

Many of us have bought speakers, then sold those speakers, then bought new speakers, an sold those speakers, etc.

So unless you want to do the same thing many of us have done, definitely figure out what's important to you and don't buy until you are very certain.

You already said you want TOWERS, not bookshelf. So that's one thing out of the way. I think most people also want towers, not bookshelf for their main speakers.

A few other factors to consider.

1. Speakers with more linear frequency response (+/- 3dB, +/-2dB, +/-1dB) vs less linear response (+/-4dB, +/-5dB, etc.).

2. Pride of ownership and aesthetics. You want speakers from big name brands? Companies who make flagship speakers that cost $60K - $300K like KEF, RBH, B&W, Legacy Audio, Revel, Focal, Dynaudio, MartinLogan, Monitor Audio, etc.

3. Customer Service. You want to be able to call someone on the phone and talk to a person? Or you want to write an email and maybe get a response a week later?

There are other factors.

You're spot on with your first comment, I moved into my new build back in October of 2022 and I've been playing the game of buying something, only to realize that I need/want better and rebuying it again and I'm hoping to not make that mistake with this. When I first decided that I could build my own system better than going to Costco or BB and purchasing a 5.1, I thought I was going to only spend ~$3kish, but as I've spent hours researching I know that I probably won't really be happy unless I'm putting together something legit which means I need to open the wallet.

1. I've been having a little bit of trouble getting a grasp on the concept of linear frequency in audiology, but I think the gist of it is that more linear frequency would mean less distortion? Which for my case, as I would mainly be watching movies, tv and sports would be what I am looking for?

2. Name brand is somewhat important to me, but not entirely. Mainly, because with name brands I know they've been tried and tested. But at the same time, I'm not afraid to deviate away from the big companies to find something that fits my needs.

3. I've worked customer service my whole life, I'm okay with either situation as I know sometimes support is run thin.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You're spot on with your first comment, I moved into my new build back in October of 2022 and I've been playing the game of buying something, only to realize that I need/want better and rebuying it again and I'm hoping to not make that mistake with this. When I first decided that I could build my own system better than going to Costco or BB and purchasing a 5.1, I thought I was going to only spend ~$3kish, but as I've spent hours researching I know that I probably won't really be happy unless I'm putting together something legit which means I need to open the wallet.

1. I've been having a little bit of trouble getting a grasp on the concept of linear frequency in audiology, but I think the gist of it is that more linear frequency would mean less distortion? Which for my case, as I would mainly be watching movies, tv and sports would be what I am looking for?

2. Name brand is somewhat important to me, but not entirely. Mainly, because with name brands I know they've been tried and tested. But at the same time, I'm not afraid to deviate away from the big companies to find something that fits my needs.

3. I've worked customer service my whole life, I'm okay with either situation as I know sometimes support is run thin.

Another factor which you already talked about is the COST.

Some brands will NOT offer any kind discounts. Some will offer a lot more discounts. You have to get with your dealers to see which brands can offer more discounts.

A FR of +/- 1dB, 2dB, 3dB from 200Hz-20kHz usually means it is more accurate. Some say +/-2dB or 2.5dB is the max they will want for their speakers.

Oh, another factor is speakers with built-in-amps vs externally-powered (no built-in amps at all). If you have speakers with built-in amps and the amps fail, it might become a hassle down the road especially if the company no longer has those amps. For externally powered speakers (note that I did not say Passive), you can use whatever external amp/AVR you want - don't have to worry about waiting for amp replacements or if the amps are no longer available at all.

 

[Oddball]

Wow, those GoldenEar seem real nice and ideally, that would be what I am looking for in a 3.0 setup that is a bad mamma jamma that packs a punch with the sleek black asthetic. Aside from those specifically, is there another set of speakers similar to that that you would recommend? I was looking at the Polk Legend L800 and wasn't sure if it was in line with something like this, but the One.R definitely seems like a step up.

Polk Legend are admirable speakers and 2 10" drivers per tower will give a hell of a bass output (provided enough amplification), but they will not replace subs in HT. Triton One.R's are designed for that and they will punch even lower and louder as they have build in subs - again provided you are not into sub 20hz bass. Technically you could bill that setup as 3.2. Their centre will also dig a bit lower and provide more enthusiastic presentation that KEF that will do the reference part better, which is great, but then it's all about what we are looking for and what works better across the preferences for the front line LCR.

In addition, Triton One.R is serious speaker overall as I noted above. I have plenty of speakers for now, but these might be the ones to replace some in my ageing setup.

GoldenEar Technology Triton One.R loudspeaker Page 2

www.stereophile.com

 

[shadyJ]

The Polk Legend L800s are a superb speaker, but they are complicated to set up and are really made for a single 'sweet spot' listening position. If you want your audio setup to be used for more than solitary listening, it might be worth looking at other designs like maybe the L600s. The Polk Legend center speaker is really good, if you want to expand out to surround sound.

I am not a fan of GoldenEar, the treble has always been a bit too tipped up for my taste. I am not crazy about how they handled the bass section in the Triton Reference R. That is packing a lot of power into a small space. It's inefficient, and it will generate a lot of heat and mechanical motion- not great for long-term reliability.

In this price range, check out the new SVS Ultra Evolution speakers, Arendal 1723 series. Philharmonic HT towers, JBL HDI series, and anything from Focal, RBH, or Revel.

 

[Oddball]

The Polk Legend L800s are a superb speaker, but they are complicated to set up and are really made for a single 'sweet spot' listening position. If you want your audio setup to be used for more than solitary listening, it might be worth looking at other designs like maybe the L600s. The Polk Legend center speaker is really good, if you want to expand out to surround sound.

I am not a fan of GoldenEar, the treble has always been a bit too tipped up for my taste. I am not crazy about how they handled the bass section in the Triton Reference R. That is packing a lot of power into a small space. It's inefficient, and it will generate a lot of heat and mechanical motion- not great for long-term reliability.

In this price range, check out the new SVS Ultra Evolution speakers, Arendal 1723 series. Philharmonic HT towers, JBL HDI series, and anything from Focal, RBH, or Revel.

With all respect to the Speaker, none of these will be able to replace the subs for HT, which was the point of suggesting the Tritons. The idea was to save on the subs and stay in the price range that 3.2 could provide.

The point re Tritons is true. They pack so much in slim towers and would be probably a better decision if they did design them a bit bigger.

If OP is not happy to go down down that route, within his budget KEFs and 1 or 2 subs would be a better solution, especially for HT.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

With all respect to the Speaker, none of these will be able to replace the subs for HT, which was the point of suggesting the Tritons. The idea was to save on the subs and stay in the price range that 3.2 could provide.

Just for fun.

The Triton One.R has 3 x (5x9) Woofers = 135 Sq. inch
Dual 10” Woofers = 157 Sq. inch.
Dual 12” Woofers = 226 Sq. inch (RBH SFTR towers)

Assuming the bass cabinets and woofer types are equivalent, the dual 10” woofers could produce more bass if driven by an external amp (actively powered). Otherwise, the Triton-1 will produce more bass as you said.

The RBH SFTR tower has true dual 12” Subwoofers and will produce a lot more bass than the Triton-1 could ever produce, but at more cost.

 

[lovinthehd]

Thanks for the advice, those Ascend Sierras caught my eye and I think tomorrow I might go driving around to find a spot to listen to those and a few other things. And if I go with KEF, I think I've decided that I do want to go with the more powerful center like the R6 even if I get the Q950s, though I can get the non-meta R5 for the same price, but that makes me believe even more that I need to get a more powerful center.

Ascend is internet direct so unless you find someone who owns them hard to get a demo (I have a set of L/C/R Sierra 1 NrTs myself). Philharmonic Audio is another internet direct company I'd consider (and the owner is a member here and is quite well regarded, he used to help design Salk's speakers, which was a wonderful brand too but owner retired).

FWIW I wouldn't consider Golden Ear as they're owned by Fraudioquest these days, someone I'd never buy from.

 

[Evil Milkman]

Another factor which you already talked about is the COST.

Some brands will NOT offer any kind discounts. Some will offer a lot more discounts. You have to get with your dealers to see which brands can offer more discounts.

A FR of +/- 1dB, 2dB, 3dB from 200Hz-20kHz usually means it is more accurate. Some say +/-2dB or 2.5dB is the max they will want for their speakers.

Oh, another factor is speakers with built-in-amps vs externally-powered (no built-in amps at all). If you have speakers with built-in amps and the amps fail, it might become a hassle down the road especially if the company no longer has those amps. For externally powered speakers (note that I did not say Passive), you can use whatever external amp/AVR you want - don't have to worry about waiting for amp replacements or if the amps are no longer available at all.

I think that the most I'm looking to spend on a L/C/R setup would probably be $7500, and ideally find a sub for $1500. But I did come into this looking to spend half that so I'm not "trying" to push my budget, I just like nice things so $7500 isn't a hard limit either. I also have no problem waiting for discounts to hit, even if that isn't until the holiday season.

I think at least now, I have a little bit of a better base on what I'm looking for when I start going into dealers around the city.

 

[lovinthehd]

Another consideration for budget stretching are used speakers....