Dolby Atmos quality, Apple Music

[depechefan]

Hi,

I was watching Gene and Theo discussing Apple Music. It left me with 2 questions:

1. They mentioned Nvidia Shield as a device you could use but to my knowledge Apple Music is not available for that device yet. It would be brilliant though
2. When talking about Dolby Atmos Music it is never discussed what flavor of Atmos it is. For movies I know that streaming services always send a version which to my knowledge is lossy. If you buy disks you get the Truehd sound track. Is this not relevant when we discuss Music?

Thanks in advance for any clarification

 

[sterling shoote]

Here's the reality now, unless you have an Apple TV connected to an AVR or Pre-Pro your Spatial Audio pleasure will come from headphones connected to iPad/iPhone. With Apple TV of course Dolby ATMOS will be heard according to presence of height channels in system.

 

[depechefan]

Ok, should have mentioned that I use my Denon receiver together with an Apple TV 4K. So I'm getting Atmos (7.2.6 configuration). But still not sure about the quality thing I asked...

 

[Trebdp83]

All streaming services use Dolby Digital Plus 7.1 with atmos metadata and is not lossless. Apple TV 4K converts the signal to PCM which can be troublesome for those connecting it directly to some TVs as metadata is not recognized as a result of the conversion and atmos playback is not possible. If Apple would just bitstream everything it would be a non issue as even ARC can handle atmos metadata from a lossy Dolby Digital Plus bitstream. The Nvidia Shield can play atmos tracks from the Tidal app and supports the Apple TV+ app but does not support the Apple Music app. The Apple TV 4K can play atmos tracks from the Apple Music app AND the Tidal app. The Apple TV 4K does not support Hi-Res audio from the Apple Music app or MQA from the Tidal app. The Nvidia Shield can handle the first unfold of MQA from the Tidal app. So, one can pick the eco system and services they prefer and the Apple TV 4K and Nvidia Shield are special among other streamers.

 

[depechefan]

Thanks for the information. I find it odd that nobody mentions this when music streaming is discussed. To me it is problematic that atmos is lossy. I assume this is also the case with Nvidia Shield and Tidal?
We are making a big deal out of lossless music from the services but don't question why Atmos music is lossy. That is paradoxical...
I agree: If only Apple would enable bitstream through the Apple TV or make an app for Nvidia Shield so you could use that device to bitstream lossless Atmos music. It's all a bit half-baked IMHO

 

[Trebdp83]

Bandwidth is the issue in regard to streaming dolby atmos and only Blu-ray Discs are capable of lossless atmos via Dolby TrueHD. Two channel lossless(16/44.1) and two channel hi-res(up to 24/192) can be had from some streaming services depending on the devices used for playback. I agree that both Tidal's MQA and Apple's Spatial Audio and hi-res situations are a mess but I have enjoyed many atmos tracks from both services. Some tracks are a fun surprise and an enhancement of the two channel versions while others can be described as abominations.

 

[depechefan]

It's a weird situation really. I love multi-channel music. In all honesty I haven't found many Atmos songs that I am really blown away by but I think it's a great initiative and it could potentially be a game changer. However I can't help feeling that it's a step back when the implementation is the lossy version. This is the main reason that I buy UHD BDs: In my experience the sound you get from the disks is vastly superior to what the streaming services can provide so I would assume that the same is the case with music... It would be interesting to do a comparison if possible to see what you are missing with the limited bandwidth.
If they wanted to give you the choice I suppose they could give you the option to download the lossless version to your device...

 

[lovinthehd]

Is there a distinction made for music made available as Atmos that was deliberately mixed for such vs an algorithm applied only?

 

[depechefan]

Not to my knowledge and I think that is another big issue. Because I think we have all experienced multi-channel music using Pro-Logic or something similar and that sounds terrible/wrong in most cases. It would be great to have that info somewhere but I think you have to really dig deep if you wanna find out how the Atmos version came about as it is now

 

[lovinthehd]

Not to my knowledge and I think that is another big issue. Because I think we have all experienced multi-channel music using Pro-Logic or something similar and that sounds terrible/wrong in most cases. It would be great to have that info somewhere but I think you have to really dig deep if you wanna find out how the Atmos version came about as it is now

Can't imagine them spending the time and money remixing to multich all the titles available in a proper studio, altho sure I can see them finding perhaps a few titles already mixed that way (as would be used perhaps on a bluray release). Just want to know what's what...provenance, as is the usual hidden ingredient in music streaming to a degree. FWIW Dolby PLIIx I think works fairly well for quite a bit of music myself, and while I don't have it, the Dolby Surround upmixer is supposed to be even better.

 

[depechefan]

Your miles may vary I suppose. FWIW my experience is mostly that upmixing stereo doesn't sound good to me. Upmixing multi-channel to Atmos is sometimes OK.

 

[lovinthehd]

Your miles may vary I suppose. FWIW my experience is mostly that upmixing stereo doesn't sound good to me. Upmixing multi-channel to Atmos is sometimes OK.

Hey I'm a big multich fan so gather as much of that material as I can....there's just not that much around in the music catalogs generally. Is the selection of this streaming Atmos quite limited like actual multich mixes available generally? I'm thinking it's gotta be mostly manufactured via algorithm....

 

[Trebdp83]

I'd think it was an algorithm as well. Lots of music out there. I am not too hung up on the lossy atmos issue. How many years did we all spend listening to lossy DD 5.1? Heck, we still do on many occasions. I'd say less compression and less loss on a music atmos track than say a movie track that includes 4K HDR video as well. Like I said, there are some really fun tracks that I play quite often. You could say..." I just can't enough, I just can't get enough..."

 

[depechefan]

Speaking of... I wish Depeche Mode would release some Atmos tracks!

 

[Trebdp83]

I wouldn't mind an atmos version of "Strange Love" or "World In My Eyes."

 

[GotAudio]

Can’t enjoy hi-res lossless from my gen1 apple 4K tv but can enjoy it in my car through iPhone 12 Pro wired up to my system.

 

[Auditor55]

I'd think it was an algorithm as well. Lots of music out there. I am not too hung up on the lossy atmos issue. How many years did we all spend listening to lossy DD 5.1? Heck, we still do on many occasions. I'd say less compression and less loss on a music atmos track than say a movie track that includes 4K HDR video as well. Like I said, there are some really fun tracks that I play quite often. You could say..." I just can't enough, I just can't get enough..."

Atmos music, just like previous multi-channel audio before it, will never be mainstream. Apple is way too optimistic about what they call spatial audio.

"I think this is going to take over everything. It’s the way I want to listen to music when I’m in my car. It’s going to be the way I listen to music immediately with my AirPods. It’s going to be the way I listen to music in my house. In a way, it won’t feel very good when I’m listening to something that’s not Dolby Atmos because it’s so good. It’s like when I’m watching HD, it’s hard to go back.” [Eddy Cue is Apple’s senior vice president of services and the person who oversees Apple Music ]

Atmos is a movie sound format, just like previous multi-channel sound formats. It's not going to work. We can circle back to this thread in 3-4 years and see if Atmos music has dominated. AirPods are not the way anyone that appreciates music will use to listen to their favorite sounds, this is the zenith of arrogance on part of Apple.

"Problem is, with much of the Dolby Atmos content on Apple Music I’ve sampled so far, it doesn’t seem like everyone is making those right calls. It’s a hit-or-miss game of exploration, and songs that truly showcase the immersive potential of Atmos are more often the exception than the rule. In many cases, spatial audio tracks have an artificial wideness to them, unfamiliar placement of vocals and instrumentation, and just sound… off. Distant? Too reverb-y? Pick your preferred interpretation. Yet, Apple is so confident in Apple Music’s spatial audio that essentially overnight it became the default for millions of customers listening with AirPods." [Chris Welch, The Verge]

The above has been some of my critiques of the Cinema sound as well, sound mixers don't know what do with this format.

 

[Auditor55]

"Apple stresses that the Apple Music app’s Atmos feature works best in concert with Apple and Beats headphones that use Apple’s W1 or H1 chips, including the Apple AirPods Pro and AirPods Max. According to Apple, because the app knows the identity of these headphones when it’s connected to them, it can optimize the sound for the best Atmos effect."

 

[Auditor55]

Mercedes adds 31-speaker Dolby Atmos system to cars for a 'concert hall on wheels'

The sound of luxury

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