Doing 5.1 Differently

[russ_l]

AcuDefTechGuy- I would have posted a reply to you sooner but I’ve been getting pummeled lately in the biwire thread.

You are correct; different horses for different courses. When I posted my response to your setup I did not realize that you had full range speakers all around. That certainly takes the bass management issue out of the picture. And that is really what I was referring to when I said “ …….I'm not sure your approach to decoding and bass management in your individual source components will stand up to that performed in the receiver or prepro; typically better than the source components”.

I was implying that a receiver or prepro (typically) yields more flexibility and options for bass management than a source component, although your 5910 is certainly no slouch in that regard (not familiar with that capability in your two HD sources). And I agree with you about the DACs; could be better in the source, could be better in the receiver / prepro. Of course the analog output stages of both enter into the picture too.

So, here’s where I’m going with all this. It does not appear that you have a HD cable or satellite source in the system. Is that correct? How do you watch TV if you do have a source? My concern is decoding the Dolby Digital bit stream from the cable or satellite box. It would seem to me that you would need a receiver or prepro to do that, thus entailing another set of six cables to your Denon amps.

In my head I’m thinking Audio Research MP1 preamp and Audio Research 150M.5 amplifier. Same basic ideas as you have but less boxes. The MP1 has three 5.1 inputs (single-ended or fully balanced) and four 2 channel inputs. And even though I’m a multichannel nut, adding an Audio Research CD2 MkIII (I like matching too) would work for me. SACD via Sony XA9000ES. DVD and DVD Audio via a new or old 5910. Blue Ray via the 3800BDCi. Just need to work out the cable box dilemma.

Russ

 

[itschris]

I'm still trying to get my head around AccuDefTech guy's setup. Everytime I think I get it, and I do for the most part, there's something new that throws me. You raised a really good question about the HD TV. Do cable boxes ever have analog outs? I don't think so. Wouldn't you just run HDMI or DVI video direct into the TV?

I'm thinking my next setup is going to be very much like this with individual preamps and seperate power amps.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

AcuDefTechGuy- I would have posted a reply to you sooner but I’ve been getting pummeled lately in the biwire thread.

You are correct; different horses for different courses. When I posted my response to your setup I did not realize that you had full range speakers all around. That certainly takes the bass management issue out of the picture. And that is really what I was referring to when I said “ …….I'm not sure your approach to decoding and bass management in your individual source components will stand up to that performed in the receiver or prepro; typically better than the source components”.

I was implying that a receiver or prepro (typically) yields more flexibility and options for bass management than a source component, although your 5910 is certainly no slouch in that regard (not familiar with that capability in your two HD sources). And I agree with you about the DACs; could be better in the source, could be better in the receiver / prepro. Of course the analog output stages of both enter into the picture too.

So, here’s where I’m going with all this. It does not appear that you have a HD cable or satellite source in the system. Is that correct? How do you watch TV if you do have a source? My concern is decoding the Dolby Digital bit stream from the cable or satellite box. It would seem to me that you would need a receiver or prepro to do that, thus entailing another set of six cables to your Denon amps.

In my head I’m thinking Audio Research MP1 preamp and Audio Research 150M.5 amplifier. Same basic ideas as you have but less boxes. The MP1 has three 5.1 inputs (single-ended or fully balanced) and four 2 channel inputs. And even though I’m a multichannel nut, adding an Audio Research CD2 MkIII (I like matching too) would work for me. SACD via Sony XA9000ES. DVD and DVD Audio via a new or old 5910. Blue Ray via the 3800BDCi. Just need to work out the cable box dilemma.

Russ

I actually came across the MP1 on the web a year ago. The only thing that turned me off at the time was the price.

The MP1 is one awesome 5.1 Class-A Analog Preamplifier!

There is no doubt the MP1 + 150M.5 would be nicer than my 3 little humble PMAs.

But $7K (MP1) + 9K (150M.5) = $16K!!!

I think the MP1 + 150M.5 would match Mark Levinson and Krell for sound quality.

But I'm just not ready for $16K 5.1 audio components right now.

I think if the MP1 + 150M.5 were around $4K total, it would probably be sitting on my audio rack right this minute.

I don't know. I would probably rather have 3 of these Krells for $7,500 total:

http://www.onecall.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=32679


HD cable or satellite source?

You are correct. I don't have these sources. Never have. Probably never will.

If I were into these things, I would rather get the Denon AVP + POA.

Actually, I might just get the AVP + POA in a few years. Then I'll be "NORMAL" like everyone else.

Or NOT.

In the mean time, I gotta get my HT Piggy bank back up again.

 

[russ_l]

Decoding the HD Dolby Bit Stream

AcuDefTechGuy- could you shed any light on how you decode the Dolby bit stream from your cable or satellite box if indeed you do that? It's the last piece of the puzzle for me in your very original setup. Thanks.

 

[PENG]

I actually came across the MP1 on the web a year ago. The only thing that turned me off at the time was the price.

The MP1 is one awesome 5.1 Class-A Analog Preamplifier!

There is no doubt the MP1 + 150M.5 would be nicer than my 3 little humble PMAs.

But $7K (MP1) + 9K (150M.5) = $16K!!!

I think the MP1 + 150M.5 would match Mark Levinson and Krell for sound quality.

But I'm just not ready for $16K 5.1 audio components right now.

I think if the MP1 + 150M.5 were around $4K total, it would probably be sitting on my audio rack right this minute.

I don't know. I would probably rather have 3 of these Krells for $7,500 total:

http://www.onecall.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=32679


HD cable or satellite source?

You are correct. I don't have these sources. Never have. Probably never will.

If I were into these things, I would rather get the Denon AVP + POA.

Actually, I might just get the AVP + POA in a few years. Then I'll be "NORMAL" like everyone else.

Or NOT.

In the mean time, I gotta get my HT Piggy bank back up again.

Don't forget to upgrade your speakers first!!
Just kidding.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'm still trying to get my head around AccuDefTech guy's setup. Everytime I think I get it, and I do for the most part, there's something new that throws me. You raised a really good question about the HD TV. Do cable boxes ever have analog outs? I don't think so. Wouldn't you just run HDMI or DVI video direct into the TV?

I'm thinking my next setup is going to be very much like this with individual preamps and seperate power amps.

Yeah, I would just hook the HDMI or DVI video directly to the TV.

Don't most of them have the traditional analog L+R stereo outputs as well for the audio?

I could hook the video to the TV and Analog L+R to one of the Line Input on the preamp.

I just don't put too much stock into cable or satellite or TV. I just watch blu-ray, DVD, HD DVD, or listen to SACD, DVD-A, or CD. Most sountracks via TV, cable, or satellite are not that great either are they? I mean not compared to blu-ray or DVD.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Don't forget to upgrade your speakers first!!
Just kidding.

In reality, I probably won't upgrade for a while.

The ONLY way I would buy anything new is if we get a new custom home. Then I would put all my components and speakers into the "family" room and buy everything new again.

I'm thinking Revel Ultima Salon2 all around and the Marantz SC7S Preamps + MA-9S Monoblocks.

And Chris will get his B&W 800Ds and MAC amps.

But for a while, I'm staying put.

 

[PENG]

In reality, I probably won't upgrade for a while.

The ONLY way I would buy anything new is if we get a new custom home. Then I would put all my components and speakers into the "family" room and buy everything new again.

I'm thinking Revel Ultima Salon2 all around and the Marantz SC7S Preamps + MA-9S Monoblocks.

And Chris will get his B&W 800Ds and MAC amps.

But for a while, I'm staying put.

Unlike Chris, I will settle for the 802D. By the way, I was at Chapter/Indigo the other day and read a review on the Revel, it wasn't good. But then that's just a review. Like I said I was just kidding, your Def Tech's are highly regarded by a lot of reviewers.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

AcuDefTechGuy- could you shed any light on how you decode the Dolby bit stream from your cable or satellite box if indeed you do that? It's the last piece of the puzzle for me in your very original setup. Thanks.

I would not be able to decode DD or DTS from the cable or satellite box. I would only get Analog Stereo from the cable or satellite box.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Unlike Chris, I will settle for the 802D. By the way, I was at Chapter/Indigo the other day and read a review on the Revel, it wasn't good. But then that's just a review. Like I said I was just kidding, your Def Tech's are highly regarded by a lot of reviewers.

What did they say about the Revel?

Tom Nousaine/S&V measured the Revel Salon2 as 28 Hz - 20 kHz +/- 1.3 dB. As far as bass extension, Stereophile got 12 Hz @ - 10 dB. Stereophile also said the off-axis response was extremely close to the on-axis response. I mean on paper, it's textbook-perfect.

But what did they about the Salon2?

I don't believe the Stereophile measurements of any B&W speakers were as good as the Salon2.

I know we've heard this before - that even independant measured specs don't guarantee a great sounding speaker.

But how can 28 Hz - 20 Hz +/- 1dB, 17 Hz @ -3dB, and 12 Hz @ -10dB go wrong?

Say it ain't so!

 

[PENG]

What did they say about the Revel?

Tom Nousaine/S&V measured the Revel Salon2 as 28 Hz - 20 kHz +/- 1.3 dB. As far as bass extension, Stereophile got 12 Hz @ - 10 dB. Stereophile also said the off-axis response was extremely close to the on-axis response. I mean on paper, it's textbook-perfect.

But what did they about the Salon2?

I'll go and read it again this weekend, I didn't buy the mag, don't even remember which one but I'll find it.

I like the look of the B&W, it comes down to personality also, in this case.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Can anyone convince me that B&W 800D, 801D, or 802D are the best?

I'm trying to be open minded here.

I just can't believe that $23,000 speakers can't do 20 Hz - 20 kHz +/- 2dB or something, you know?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'll go and read it again this weekend, I didn't buy the mag, don't even remember which one but I'll find it.

I like the look of the B&W, it comes down to personality also, in this case.

It would be so simple if there were just one pair of the Best Speakers to which all others are measured. You know - the Gold Standard of speakers. Life would be more simple.

 

[itschris]

It would be so simple if there were just one pair of the Best Speakers to which all others are measured. You know - the Gold Standard of speakers. Life would be more simple.

That would be nice... but boring. What would we argue about then. I think one of the reason why I like the B&W's so much is the way they look. Of course they sound great, but then so do a lot of speakers. I love my Def Techs, but they remind me very much of the seen in 2001 Space Oddessy of the big black monolith sitting in the living room.

The B&W's just have style. They're not just a rectangular box made of nice wood, yet they're not different for just the sake of being different or too "out there." I think they're the perfect blend of traditional and modern design and I like that.

There are a lot of other speakers I like too, and maybe when the time comes, it'll be something different, maybe Logans, but I sure do like those 800 series speakers.

I've been thinking a lot about your setup and trying to figure out if it'll work for me. It's hard for me to be happy because I'm a traditionalist, yet, I like all the cook new fangled stuff as well. I'm totally digging the Nerual Music Surround sound that I get with the internet connection from my 94. I like the different surround formats that the piece offers as well. It's amazing how well the Neo Cinema surround format works for basic TV. It's DD or anything, but it adds a lot to plain Jane TV. I guess I'm wondering if I'd miss the features. I don't know, I have to decide that. The idea of having say 4 2 channel preamps and say 3 monoblocks and a mulit-channel amp is just such a draw to me. I just think it would look so awsome in the right room setup the right way. I like the idea of the purity of 2 channel you get from a setup like your, yet have the no compromise ht.

I was thining about this last night, how do you control volume? If you have 3 seperate integrated amps, don't they each have their own volume control. How do you keep them all in sync from when your listining to 2 channel or all 5?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I was thining about this last night, how do you control volume? If you have 3 seperate integrated amps, don't they each have their own volume control. How do you keep them all in sync from when your listining to 2 channel or all 5?

Some preamps have digital volume indicators (Marantz, Krell, Emotiva, etc.) and some have just plain analog volume knobs (Denon, Bryston, etc.) without digital volume LCD.

Right now, all 3 of my volume knobs are @ the 9 o'clock position. This comes out to be about 90dB for 5.1 HT/Music and 2.0 Music most of the time.

But when a certain song/movie isn't has loud or too loud, I just turn the volume a little up or down.

For movies, I change just the Center channel volume.

For music, I just change the fronts L+R volume.

I never change the surrounds volume. It's always @ 9:00.

When it's time to turn off the amps, I turn the Center/L+R back to the 9:00 position.

But 99% of the time, I never even touch the volume knobs.

The Marantz Refernece series actually have synchronized volume controls- when you turn the volume on one preamp, the others all synchronize. So Marantz has also thought about this concept of using 3 or 4 preamps!

But if you got one of those preamps with digital readout, it would be more simple and exact. You could just increase/decrease the volume in 0.5 dB increments. So just set all 3 preamps to 20.5 dB, etc.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I've been thinking a lot about your setup and trying to figure out if it'll work for me. It's hard for me to be happy because I'm a traditionalist, yet, I like all the cook new fangled stuff as well. I'm totally digging the Nerual Music Surround sound that I get with the internet connection from my 94. I like the different surround formats that the piece offers as well. It's amazing how well the Neo Cinema surround format works for basic TV. It's DD or anything, but it adds a lot to plain Jane TV. I guess I'm wondering if I'd miss the features.

Yeah, you can either be a "Minimalist" or a "Maximus".

I don't know where I got that! It just popped into my head.

Believe me. I've thought about just getting a Denon 5308 or saving up for the AVP+POA. But it just goes against my "Purist" basic instincts.

If Denon were to make a Reference Preamp + Amp like the Marantz that cost a total of $15,000, I would get it instead of the $15,000 AVP+POA combo.

Again, it all goes back to personality.

I don't even want Radio, Internet, or TV in the loop.

I did watch the Superbowl with the TV analog L+R output connected to my preamps/amp and it sounded great. Just Analog Stereo for TV.

If you miss all those features, then the minimalist approach is not your style.

Yeah, aesthetics and prestige are important - like the beautiful, prestigeous, and great sounding B&W 800Ds. I swear it! If the 800Ds were at least 20 Hz - 20 kHz +/-3dB, it would be @ the top of my must-own-in-lifetime list.

Uniqueness is also important.

I always like to brag that I'm the only one in the WORLD to have my setup.

So far, it seems true.

Pre-pros + Amp vs. Receivers vs. Pre-prepros + Preamp HT Bypass + Amp have all been done everyday - 24 hrs a day/7 days a week/52 weeks a year. It is the NORM. We all know about it. It is normal. It is fine. It is all and well.

But I prefer being unique.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The B&W's just have style. They're not just a rectangular box made of nice wood, yet they're not different for just the sake of being different or too "out there." I think they're the perfect blend of traditional and modern design and I like that.

I have to admit that the B&W 800D is one of the best looking speakers.

But I wonder why there are not any high-profile reviews of the 800D out there like Stereophile, Home Theater Magazine, Sound & Vision Magazine, Ultimate A/V Magzine, etc., with actual measurements and all???

To me, any review is crap unless it has actual measurements to back up their words. Like they say, word is cheap. Gotta put the money where the mouth is.

Can Audioholics maybe review the 800Ds?

 

[itschris]

I think my problem right now is that I want everything I want... if that makes sense. I like the purity, but also like the technology. It's hard to marry those two.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think my problem right now is that I want everything I want... if that makes sense. I like the purity, but also like the technology. It's hard to marry those two.

The only way around this is to use 3 preamps w/ HT Bypass (& digital volume readout) + 5Ch amps + 1 Pre-pro to do all the 5.1 digital processing.

Okay, this is how it works.

For SACD, DVD-A, Blu-ray, HD DVD, DVD, CD, you will use the player's Internal Decoders and DACs. I'm sure someone will come out with a true Universal player that will play BD, DVD, SACD, DVD-A, CD. This gives you the True Purist system.

Now for HD Satellite, TV, Internet Radio, etc., you hook those into the Pre-Pro and hook the Line-level outputs to the corresponding 3 preamps' HT Bypass loop.

Now you have BOTH a Purist 5.1 System and all the new digital stuff.

Depending on your mood, you could go from the Minimalist hardcore Analog guy to a Maximus hardcore Digital guy.

But most people would say just get a Class-A Analog Preamp w/ HT Bypass + a Pre-Pro + Amp.

For 2.0 Music, you have the hardcore analog.

For 5.1 Music + Movies + Everything else, you have the traditional 5.1 Pre-Pro.

 

[itschris]

Oooooh! Okay that makes sense. So theoretically, I could keep my Elite 94 and just add some preamps. I already have the Sunfire 5 channel. Hmmmm....

I mean it's sorda would be like "why are you doing all that" and there is a lot of duplication, but what the hell?

The only way around this is to use 3 preamps w/ HT Bypass (& digital volume readout) + 5Ch amps + 1 Pre-pro to do all the 5.1 digital processing.

Okay, this is how it works.

For SACD, DVD-A, Blu-ray, HD DVD, DVD, CD, you will use the player's Internal Decoders and DACs. I'm sure someone will come out with a true Universal player that will play BD, DVD, SACD, DVD-A, CD. This gives you the True Purist system.

Now for HD Satellite, TV, Internet Radio, etc., you hook those into the Pre-Pro and hook the Line-level outputs to the corresponding 3 preamps' HT Bypass loop.

Now you have BOTH a Purist 5.1 System and all the new digital stuff.

Depending on your mood, you could go from the Minimalist hardcore Analog guy to a Maximus hardcore Digital guy.

But most people would say just get a Class-A Analog Preamp w/ HT Bypass + a Pre-Pro + Amp.

For 2.0 Music, you have the hardcore analog.

For 5.1 Music + Movies + Everything else, you have the traditional 5.1 Pre-Pro.