Does good sub mean cheaper mains?

H

herbu

Audioholic Samurai
Upgrading my HT.
Have KEF KHT30005SE 5.1 speakers.
Rythmik FV15HP sub arrives next week. :)D)
It's a big room w/ cathedral ceiling.
Use it for ~80% TV/Movies, ~20% music.

I'm thinking about moving the KEF front L/R to the middle back for 7.1, and getting new front left & rights.
Budget is up to ~$1500 for the 2 new speakers.

As I read reviews/comments, and study speaker sites, it seems the biggest difference as you move up in price from ~500 to $1500 is the addition or improvement of bass response.

I'm thinking w/ my KEF sub, and new Rythmik sub :)D), I'm not so concerned about getting more or better bass in the new front L/R.

1st question: Is that a reasonable thought process?

Then it seems that if less $ go into the bass portion of the new front L/R, more can go into the quality of the mids and highs.

So I'm looking for a new front pair, (probably towers), w/ good mids/highs for up to ~$1500.

2nd question: Suggestions?

Thanks,
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
If all you care about is what the sub produces then, yes, your thiking is sound.

But, if you care at all about any sounds above 80 hz, then your logic falls flat on it's face. I'd suggest you go for the best front three you can get.

I think you should be able to take it from there...
 
T

templemaners

Senior Audioholic
Considering how much is above ~80 or so hz vs. what is below that level, follow Mark's advice & try and get the best front 2/3 speakers you can afford. The only thing that really changes is you shouldn't have to chase mains/CC's with deep extension. This is assuming that when you listen in two channel mode, you are using your sub (instead of using something like Pure Direct mode).
 
H

herbu

Audioholic Samurai
Thanks, guys.

So shop for new mains like they were the only speakers I would have.

Consider the surrounds and subs only as supplements, not as replacing anything lacking in the front mains.

Makes sense.

So far, Verus Grand Towers look like a winner, but will chew on it for a while.

Thanks again!
 
B

Beatmatcher247

Full Audioholic
Don't be scared to look at something a little bit above your budget. It looks like you're basing your decision off of straight MSRP pricing. With a good street price, you could get a couple PSB Imagine T's shipped to come in under that budget. While I haven't heard the aperion's, I know that those imagine T's are an amazing bang for your buck speaker when you get them at a good street price.
 
Warpdrv

Warpdrv

Audioholic Ninja
Audiogon.com
Used gets you more bang for your Buck

Got some nice deals there over the years
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
I must have misunderstood your first post, because I thought it made sense. You don't need your front speakers to go much below your cutoff (in your case, 80Hz). You do want some extension below that amount because the cutoff isn't a brick wall, so your speakers will still handle some sound below 80Hz. For example, my bookshelves go down to 53Hz +/- 3dB, and I think that they sound great paired with a sub. I intentionally didn't buy the corresponding towers that are listed as 29Hz +/- 3dB (and cost $700/pair more). In the case of my NHTs, the only difference between the designs was one was a bookshelf, and one was a tower with an extra woofer.

So, yeah, I believe that you can save good money by not buying that lower extension that you won't be using.
 
H

herbu

Audioholic Samurai
You don't need your front speakers to go much below your cutoff (in your case, 80Hz).
Thanks, Adam, but I'm afraid this is where it gets a little complicated, (for me).

> KEF suggests crossover @ 120Hz
> The KEF sub sounds good, but not deep, (30-150Hz claimed).
But I'm guessing the Rythmik will fill in the bottom real nicely.

If I keep the receiver set at 120Hz crossover so I get the most out of the KEF satellites, it seems paying extra for new mains that go down to 30-40Hz might be a bit of a waste.

If that is solid logic, then the thing I need to look for is strength & quality from about 80-20kHz? Right?

Is there anything like that?

Thanks,
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
I don't consider them full range speakers.

Thanks, Adam, but I'm afraid this is where it gets a little complicated, (for me).

> KEF suggests crossover @ 120Hz
> The KEF sub sounds good, but not deep, (30-150Hz claimed).
But I'm guessing the Rythmik will fill in the bottom real nicely.

If I keep the receiver set at 120Hz crossover so I get the most out of the KEF satellites, it seems paying extra for new mains that go down to 30-40Hz might be a bit of a waste.

If that is solid logic, then the thing I need to look for is strength & quality from about 80-20kHz? Right?

Is there anything like that?

Thanks,
Your bold statement pretty much sums it up and there's a LOT out there that fits that description. Perhaps not where you're looking though.

But, you seem to go from one extreme to the other here.

Now, one can ask whatever price they want for speakers and then can concentrate their "engineering" in any areas they want. It seems that KEF chose to throw their engineering (in the ones you specify here) in the mids and upper ranges. ...or perhaps in keeping them diminutive so as to look pretty. Not always the best design goal when shooting for the best sound. WAF, perhaps, but sound, no.

If you're bound and determined to get these, then enjoy, but be aware that most subs are designed to really stop contributing at a lower frequency (80 hz or less) and by asking it to go up to 120, you'll be getting more contribution from the sub than I, personally, would feel comfortable with. And, it may sound "tubby" and you WILL be able to localize it, which is not a good thing on a "real" hi-fi system.

We've given our honest input but you seem to want to convince us (or yourself) yourself that that's fine and you can live with that. If you can live with that, fine. You don't need our approval for that. Enjoy.

Given my druthers, I'd be looking for something with a bit more extension and implement a sub as nature intended. IOW, something a bit bigger with a bit more "real" extension to, say, around 40 - 60 hz or so, so the sub blends in aturally nas it was intended to but, hey, it's your money and ears, not mine. But, it won't be tiny. Not necessarily huge, but not the size of a few paperback books either.

FWIW, used a pair of full range, Magnapan 1.6's with a subwoofer crossed over at about 50 hz and got some heartbreakingly beautiful noise from that combo.
 
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H

herbu

Audioholic Samurai
Mark,
Thanks so much. Please don't write me off yet. I really am looking for advice, and there may be one misunderstanding.

I already have the KEF KHT3005SE HT set.

I decided to upgrade everything... TV/Bluray/Recvr/Speakers.
Research on all components began w/ CNET reviews, then searches to confirm their findings.

When it came to surround sound speakers, they loved the KEF set. Everywhere else I looked loved them too. I bought 'em.

I also love them, compared to my 10-year old JBL theatre-in-a-box set up. Even the sub is so much cleaner. But I don't really feel my spleen vibrate when the alien ship explodes. So I started more research on subs.

That's why I ordered the FV15HP. During the sub research, I began learning more about crossover and freq response. It made me start thinking about what I'll have with the whole system.

FV15HP = 14-90Hz, and looks flat between 20-60
KEF sub = 30-150Hz (can't find a graph)
KEF center & sats = 65/70-55Kz (can't find a graph)

So my novice intuition thinks I'll have adequate overlap and coverage, (although I don't know how much rolloff plays in the overlap between speakers because I can't find graphs for the KEFs.)

The boss is on board and even impressed w/ all the improvements so far. So naturally, as a guy, I'm thinking Yee Haw!!! I'm gonna ride this pony until it throws me off! So what's next?

From all the reading on Audioholics, it occurs to me the KEF speakers are now my weak link, (even though I've only had them a month). I thought, OK, I can move the front L/R to the middle back, add 2 new mains, and justify by claiming upgrade from 5.1 to 7.1. That's why I'm thinking about new front L/R.

Not mandatory. Not because I'm unhappy w/ what I have. Just because I think maybe I can before this window of opportunity slams shut w/ the boss.

I should have done more research within the audiophile community instead of just the commercial sites before getting the KEFs. But it is what it is, and I'm not dissatisfied with them.

Now you know the whole story.
So any suggestions for the new mains, for a big room, up to $1.5k?

Thanks,
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
I see. Since you already have it puts a new light on the situation.

Let's (re)start by stating the basic rules that apply.

There are two sets of rules:

First, for music, you start with the best mains you can afford. The sub is basically optional and should only come into play to fill in the bottom end where the mains start to fall off. A full range, with as much bass extension as possible is a good thing here. That way, the mains provide virtually all of the sound. In this case, the only way one really aware of the sub is when it's removed from the equation and when there is music with sufficient low-end content to require the use of the sub, which is less than you would think. The Maggie setup I mentioned was an example of this.

HT is a different animal. It depends on the low frequency effects channel for it's impact. For HT, the de-facto standard is that the sub works up to 80 hz. That means that the mains should go down to at least 80 hz.

Now, keep in mind that these numbers are not brick walls. These speakers gradually fall off around that number so extension the mains below 80 hz is good to have and you can bet that the sub is still increasing it's output below 80 hz will still be putting out, albeit at lower levels, above 80 hz until it totally fades out.

The KEF is a fine system within it's limits. It's limits being the laws of physics. It's well built and I'm sure sounds good within it's design limits but, as you can see, after living with it for a while it's limits become apparent. A sub has to match it's mains. Even if you get a bigger, badder sub, you will still have to reign it back so as to not overpower the mains. And, I have no doubt that the KEF system totally outclasses that ten-year old JBL HT system. And, they are cute as hell and I'm sure that most people who have them will be satisfied for life.

Now, the kicker. I've found that almost any system can sound good on movie applications but when it comes to music, they might lack. That's why these mini-systems sell so well: They are demonstrated with movie content and the bang/boom/sizzle sure is impressive when the dinosaur stomps and bullets are whizzing by from all directions. But, a bit of careful listening with a well recorded musical source can quickly reveal the inherent flaws in a tiny driver/big sub system.

In short, when shopping for a system, use music you know and love as a test, not movies. If a system can sound good with two-channel music, you can count on it sounding great on movies. Just make sure you get a center from the same manufacturer/line as the mains for a coherent front spread. The opposite is not always the case.

So, rather than have us throw names at you now, I'd suggest you first go listen to as many different speakers as possible. Find out what you like and don't like. You might be surprised to find that some not so expensive speakers can do a pretty good job, particularly when Internet only dealers are involved. ...just try to figure on some mains and a center.

If you knew what my HT speakers cost, you would laugh, but they do a surprisingly good job at what they do, even with miusic. Suffice it to say that even with the sub they cost less than your $1500.

A better sub can be added at any time. They are a dime a dozen, figuratively speaking, and getting even better and cheaper as time goes on.

I'm sure "the boys" will be happy to share their beliefs with you once you have a direction.

Good luck.
 
Warpdrv

Warpdrv

Audioholic Ninja
That Rythmik sub will not play up to 120hz....
FR 14 - 90 Hz (-2 dB @ 14 Hz)



I would suggest speakers that will play lower then 80hz IMO
 
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D

DS-21

Full Audioholic
FV15HP = 14-90Hz, and looks flat between 20-60
KEF sub = 30-150Hz (can't find a graph)
KEF center & sats = 65/70-55Kz (can't find a graph)
I am currently using the KHT3005SE (mostly; surround speakers are from a KEF Picoforte 1 iPod dock) and it's pretty clear that most of the commentators have not heard the set.

It's simply spectacular for the size. It also sounds better than most of the larger KEF speakers I've heard, likely due to the dispersion pattern and the careful shaping of the baffle. Being one of the better-sounding KEFs means they sounds better than most speakers period, as few firms engineer speakers as consistently excellent as KEF does. (Their Refs do sound better, and based on the measurements of the new Q900...that's the speaker to beat at anything near its price.)

Honestly, and to my dismay, they throw a better image better than do my reference LCR trio, which use expensive 12" Tannoy Dual Concentric drivers in bespoke low-diffraction cabinets.(For cost comparison, the entire KHT3005SE set costs a bit less than 1/3 as much as each of my reference mains. True, the big Tannoys do everything else better, with the extra output capability in the lower mids being the biggest difference.)

The basic design of the Uni-Q, along with the chosen crossover frequency, frees them from the midrange bloom that typical speakers with flush-mounted domes suffer. They're very well voiced for small-to-medium rooms. (Some listeners may wish they were voiced a bit brighter, admittedly. I don't.) Lastly, when limited to ~120Hz, get shockingly loud. Perhaps not quite loud enough to transport a listener to the Musikverein during a read of Shostakovich 10 or Mahler 8, but loud enough for most music.

That said, IMO the Rythmik sub is not well-matched to the mains, or for that matter very suitable for a modern home audio system at all. It's a bit big (so you won't really use its capabilities unless you run the bass very hot; a 12" primary sub is IMO more appropriate for 4.5" mains) and is extremely limited in bandwidth. A classic example of sacrificing something that absolutely matters (upper-bass bandwidth) for a marketing point of questionable audibility (the nth degree of low distortion in a frequency region where people are relatively insensitive to distortion.) But you already have it.

Here's what I'd do if you want to buy something new and really make a coherent system that shines on live, unamplified music and has adequate dynamics for most movies, starting with what you already have.

First, how to spend your $1500 for maximum benefit:

1) If you don't already have one, buy a decent measurement system. It is simply impossible to set up a complex audio system without good measurements.
If you have a Mac, you can buy FuzzMeasure Pro and the recommendations on the FuzzMeasure site for mic preamps and mics. If you have a not-a-Mac, the Omnimic system from Parts Express is a good, inexpensive turnkey option. If you want a standalone, non-computer-based system, you could look for a used Velodyne SMS-1. (That's what I use. It has some drawbacks, especially if you don't also have their MIC-5 spatial averaging kit, but is the easiest one to use by far.)

2) Buy two additional small subwoofers. They can be KEF HTB2's or anything similar. If they are different, make sure the drive-units have shorting rings in their motors as the HTB2 does, because otherwise they won't play high enough. If the Rythmik were less compromised, you'd probably only need one more sub, or three total. But it is what it is. The goal is to randomize, and thus smooth out, room modes in the upper bass. (NOTE: if you can return the Rythmik or cancel the order before it ships, that wouldn't be a bad idea. Then you could pick better subs, and only need three of them total.)

3) A minDSP-in-a-Box with their 4-Way Advanced Plugin. (Google it.) There are two reasons you need a standalone EQ box. First, the HTB2 does not have onboard controls to vary its level or crossover slope, and its phase control is just a crude 0/180 switch. You need fine control of level and phase/delay to integrate multiple subwoofers. Second, ine issue is that the HTB2 is a passive radiator sub tuned well for what it is. But it will drop off in frequency. Below is the combined measurement of three subs, a DIY design with a low corner of around 20Hz and two HTB2's (5-point spatial average).



(The notch on the top of the graph is the mains' floor bounce.)

Honestly, that's probably top-thousandth-of-one-percent in-room frequency response in the upper bass. And if the HTB2 had controls for level, phase, and low-pass that would be attainable without a standalone box. But as you can see, there is more energy in the 40-80Hz octave than in the octave below. That's because there are three subs covering 40-80Hz, but only one is providing useful response in the 20-40Hz octave. However, with three parametric EQ cuts, that response becomes this response:



Now, setup:

Place the Rythmik in a room corner. Put one of the smaller subs on the opposite wall somewhere, one on the back wall somewhere, and one near the mains. Get one of them off the ground as high as you can, if you can. (If you can't, the floor-ceiling mode is the one most amenable to EQ, because it is fairly consistent across the room.)

Set your receiver's crossover to 120Hz, and play with the delay and level of the nearest small sub until the response is smoothest from 50-150Hz. The overall sub level should be lagging the mains by maybe 3dB. Then add in the next closest small sub, again using level/delay to get the smoothest response. Levels should be nearly flat now. Then add in the third. It should only add marginally to the overall level, but should smooth out peaks and troughs. Then, add in the Rythmik. Set a lowpass filter to about the F3 of the other three subs, which will be in the 30-40Hz range if they are all HTB2's. (You can use either the miniDSP or the Rythmik's built in crossover. It doesnt matter.) Starting from a low level, increase the Rythmik's level until you have smooth response down to the Rythmik's natural F3 in the room. Then apply any needed EQ for large variances, but don't sweat the narrow notches or peaks unless you later hear them. At this stage, if you want a house curve, use a shelf filter on the input side of the miniDSP to effect it. Measure to confirm operation.
 
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S

Sylar

Full Audioholic
how about the paradigm Studio towers....i had an audition of these recently...they sound great
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
No, the servo system basically limits the bandwidth to 100Hz and down.
No, the servo doesn't; the AMP just has a built in LPF at 80hz because it's marketted towards """"purists""" who don't use receivers or processors.

If you get the versions with the A370PEQ amp it can be used with LPF defeated:





200hz as a -3db point is very acceptable. No one is going to run a crossover point higher than 120hz anyways, unless they want to lose localization cues.
 

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