Does an Amp still send/use power to Speaker-Out's if using Pre-Out's?

TX428

TX428

Audiophyte
Hi everyone. I am using Elac Navis ARB-51's for my Front L/R (Love, love, love them!). Since these are powered, tri-amp'd, they are using my Front L/R PRE-OUT on my Marantz 1608.

When running Audyssey it works with the Front PRE-out, but throws a polarity error regarding the Front L/R speaker terminals-- since there is nothing connected. (I just selected [ignore])

That leaves me with questions.

1. If there are no speakers connected to Front L/R speaker terminals, does the amp still send/use power? Or does it sense an incomplete circuit and not waste energy?

2. I have the Elac Uni-Fi Center that is the correct matching center for the Navis according to Elac. It is power hungry and 4 Ohm. Also, my rear B&W M1's (surprising well matched to the Elac based on pink noise tests, and listening) are not the most efficient. All of that said, if I am not "Powering" Front L/R Speakers, is there more headroom, power, available to the Center and 2 rears? (Assuming Q1 the amp isn't expending energy to non-existent speakers)

Thanks, the Marantz manual doesn't address Front Pre Out at all.
 
everettT

everettT

Audioholic Spartan
Hi everyone. I am using Elac Navis ARB-51's for my Front L/R (Love, love, love them!). Since these are powered, tri-amp'd, they are using my Front L/R PRE-OUT on my Marantz 1608.

When running Audyssey it works with the Front PRE-out, but throws a polarity error regarding the Front L/R speaker terminals-- since there is nothing connected. (I just selected [ignore])

That leaves me with questions.

1. If there are no speakers connected to Front L/R speaker terminals, does the amp still send/use power? Or does it sense an incomplete circuit and not waste energy?

2. I have the Elac Uni-Fi Center that is the correct matching center for the Navis according to Elac. It is power hungry and 4 Ohm. Also, my rear B&W M1's (surprising well matched to the Elac based on pink noise tests, and listening) are not the most efficient. All of that said, if I am not "Powering" Front L/R Speakers, is there more headroom, power, available to the Center and 2 rears? (Assuming Q1 the amp isn't expending energy to non-existent speakers)

Thanks, the Marantz manual doesn't address Front Pre Out at all.
The other channels will have more avialable power. I'd ignore the polarity warning also.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Hi everyone. I am using Elac Navis ARB-51's for my Front L/R (Love, love, love them!). Since these are powered, tri-amp'd, they are using my Front L/R PRE-OUT on my Marantz 1608.

When running Audyssey it works with the Front PRE-out, but throws a polarity error regarding the Front L/R speaker terminals-- since there is nothing connected. (I just selected [ignore])

That leaves me with questions.

1. If there are no speakers connected to Front L/R speaker terminals, does the amp still send/use power? Or does it sense an incomplete circuit and not waste energy?

2. I have the Elac Uni-Fi Center that is the correct matching center for the Navis according to Elac. It is power hungry and 4 Ohm. Also, my rear B&W M1's (surprising well matched to the Elac based on pink noise tests, and listening) are not the most efficient. All of that said, if I am not "Powering" Front L/R Speakers, is there more headroom, power, available to the Center and 2 rears? (Assuming Q1 the amp isn't expending energy to non-existent speakers)

Thanks, the Marantz manual doesn't address Front Pre Out at all.
You opening statement and question 1. is a little confusing or contradicting each other. So please clarify the following:

1. When you ran Audyssey and got the polarity error, did you have the pre out of the AVR connected to the Elac's RCA input?
2. If you did, then why did you say "nothing connected".
3. During the Audyssey run, in the first main listening position, did the front L/R make any sound?

If the L/R speakers were making sound, that is, the inputs were connected to the Marantz's pre outs, then Audyssey probably did detect a polarity error and in that case it should be investigated.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
If the amplifier in the AVR is operational, it won't matter if you're using a different power amp- Audyssey only measures what comes from the speakers.

Power comes from a calculation; voltage can be measured at the speaker terminals connected to non-loaded channels, but since there's no load, no current is measurable and, therefore, no power. It can stress the amplifier if the specified limits of the output transistors or other components very close are very close to what happens when the volume control is cranked. If possible, turn off the channels that aren't used.

The speaker inputs seem to be inverting the signal or causing phase shift- since they're active, you can't change that without voiding the warranty. This is absolute phase, not relative phase- it's more academic than functional. Move the mic and see if this changes.
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
If the amplifier is "ON", then it will be using power regardless of whether or not there is signal, and regardless of whether a speaker (load) is connected. The "amp idle" power is known as the "quiescent power", and this represents the voltage needed to "turn on" the semiconductor devices (i.e. the voltage required to get the electrons/holes into the conduction band of the semiconductor device")
 
TX428

TX428

Audiophyte
All, thanks for the reply's. Some clarifications:

@PENG

1. When you ran Audyssey and got the polarity error, did you have the pre out of the AVR connected to the Elac's RCA input? YES via Front RCA/PRE
2. If you did, then why did you say "nothing connected".
Because there is no 'speaker' cables connected. Front L/R speaker terminals are empty.
3. During the Audyssey run, in the first main listening position, did the front L/R make any sound? Yep, via the PRE

@highfigh
Would Marantz really allow it to stress itself? If so, what is the purpose of having PRE's & SPKR outs. Marantz also does not have any user configurable "Output On/Off" settings. I am hoping that somewhere in the AVR logic, it see's no load on those SPKR terminals and doesn't expend any energy unless something gets connected. Also, wouldn't this be an issue for unused channels? i.e. Only using 5 vs 7,9,11, other channels are simply not connected.

@slipperybidness Yep... But if I am not having to amplify 2-channels because it is being handled downstream via the PRE out, the overall power consumption should be less.

@everettT - I think you nailed it. Not used, therefore not taxing the AVR.

This really comes down to the fact the only AVR has to amplify 3 channels (and maybe some ATMOS in the future). The 3 SPKR outputs in use happen to have great sounding, but inefficient speakers on a 50 watt AVR. I just found the setting to put the Marantz into 4 Ohm mode. Since the Center is a 4 Ohm, I wonder if I should change it from default. Thoughts?
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
All, thanks for the reply's. Some clarifications:

@PENG

1. When you ran Audyssey and got the polarity error, did you have the pre out of the AVR connected to the Elac's RCA input? YES via Front RCA/PRE
2. If you did, then why did you say "nothing connected".
Because there is no 'speaker' cables connected. Front L/R speaker terminals are empty.
3. During the Audyssey run, in the first main listening position, did the front L/R make any sound? Yep, via the PRE
Okay then it is clear, Audyssey detected a polarity error that may be legit. Audyssey does not care if the speaker terminals are used, it detects polarity by analyzing the phase relationship between the speakers picked up by the mic. It is not an electrical wiring detection, but an acoustically based detection. So as long as the speaker is making sound, it doesn't matter if the AVR's internal amp is powering it, or the external amp via the AVR's pre out. Either way, Audyssey can and will do its job just the same.

You should check and make sure that the interconnect's leads/wires are connected/soldered to the RCA connectors correctly. I know by experienced that this could happen, though rarely. I had a couple of those that in fact had polarity reversed in the connector at one end. I had to open it up and re-solder the leads to the connectors correctly. You can check and verify that with a multi-meter or open up the connector for an visual inspection. If you don't have one or don't want to be bothered, then you can simply replace the interconnects in question, but be sure to replace them with something from a different brand, in case any such defective samples may be from a whole batch of production. Again, this scenario is not likely, but it could happen, and did happen to me once.

If you can confirm that the interconnects are wired/soldered correctly, then you can choose to ignore it or try to play some stereo music that you know have very focused center stage, such as vocal. In stereo mode, without the center speaker, the vocal should sound right in the middle and planted securely. The sound should not appear to wander to each side or from the sides. If the center stage is not securely planted, then the polarity is reversed somewhere, likely within the internal connections of the powered speaker. In that case, it will be up to you to choose ignoring it, complain to Def Tech and see what they can do, or just fix it yourself.

Hopefully, the best outcome is if one of the interconnects has the polarity reversed at the RCA connector, then it is a simple matter of fixing it, or replace it with another interconnect.

Would Marantz really allow it to stress itself? If so, what is the purpose of having PRE's & SPKR outs. Marantz also does not have any user configurable "Output On/Off" settings. I am hoping that somewhere in the AVR logic, it see's no load on those SPKR terminals and doesn't expend any energy unless something gets connected. Also, wouldn't this be an issue for unused channels? i.e. Only using 5 vs 7,9,11, other channels are simply not connected.
I think you misunderstood his point. You asked if the AVR still send/use power if the pre outs are used instead of the speaker outputs. The answer is, yes it will use power but it will be less, because only the processor and the preamp section will be used, and the power amp channels not actually driving the speakers will be just idling. In other words, those amp channels will use just consume a little when idling. As slippery mentioned, the transistors will be drawing quiescent currents. They will not, and cannot send power to the speakers simply because the speakers are not connected to the binding posts. So no, the Marantz won't allow itself to be stressed at all. The preamp/processor part will work the same way but the unused power amp channels will only consume the much less idling power.

But if I am not having to amplify 2-channels because it is being handled downstream via the PRE out, the overall power consumption should be less.
That is correct, obviously.
 
Last edited:
TX428

TX428

Audiophyte
Awesome Peng! I will test all of that out. Everything sounds excellent, and I have some Phase Testing WAV files I can use via the front USB port on the Marantz, or run a CD through the Blu-Ray.

Some random thoughts, additional information.
  1. The RCA Pre-Out from the Marantz is using a Blue Jeans Cable LC-1 to a McIntosh C52 Pre-Amp running in Home Theater Bypass. (I would hope BJC got the RCA right)
  2. The McIntosh C52 is connected to the Navis' over "Balanced" XLR. (Mogami 2549/Neutrix)
  3. The Navis' have L/R selectors (that are correctly set, but are only used in wireless mode, which is not used)
Ohh, any thoughts if I should switch the Marantz into 4 Ohm mode to match the Uni-Fi Center? I seem to remember Gene saying leave everything in 8 Ohm mode...

Thanks again everyone!
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Awesome Peng! I will test all of that out. Everything sounds excellent, and I have some Phase Testing WAV files I can use via the front USB port on the Marantz, or run a CD through the Blu-Ray.

Some random thoughts, additional information.
  1. The RCA Pre-Out from the Marantz is using a Blue Jeans Cable LC-1 to a McIntosh C52 Pre-Amp running in Home Theater Bypass. (I would hope BJC got the RCA right)
  2. The McIntosh C52 is connected to the Navis' over "Balanced" XLR. (Mogami 2549/Neutrix)
  3. The Navis' have L/R selectors (that are correctly set, but are only used in wireless mode, which is not used)
Thanks again everyone!
As I mentioned, the interconnect polarity error scenario is highly unlikely. I mentioned it only because it actually happened to me so I now it is a real possibility.

Now that you provided the additional information, I think it may also be possible that Audyssey detected the polarity error not between the L and R, but the C channel because the L,R signal went through the C52 as well. Without knowing enough about how the Mc implements the HT bypass scheme, the possibility is there that it might have introduced enough time delay/phase shift that in turn fooled Audyssey. I am assuming that the C channel does not go through the C52 because the C52 is a two channel preamp.

The important thing is for the L, R channels to be in phase (ideally the center channel should be in phase too),so if you have suitable music that has stable center stage such as vocal, or continuous bass contents, go ahead and test for the real thing. As you must know, if the L and R are in fact our of phase, the low bass will be weakened noticeably that anyone can tell right away. Same for the center vocal thing I mentioned before. So it should be an easy and fun thing to do. It that tests works out,, then you can feel free to ignore Audyssey's phase error warning.

Lastly, I see no point of using the C52 in that system, unless I am still missing some information. For two channel music listening without the AVR in the loop, the speakers are still going to be the bottleneck. To have it in the loop using HT bypass may be a convenient way but imo it will do more harm than good.

Ohh, any thoughts if I should switch the Marantz into 4 Ohm mode to match the Uni-Fi Center? I seem to remember Gene saying leave everything in 8 Ohm mode...
You remember right, he typically would suggest leaving it in the 8 ohm setting. If you change it to the 4 ohm setting, the AVR will limit its output so you may feel the effect in much reduced dynamics. Just go easy on the volume, or add an Outlaw monoblock to feed the Uni-fi center.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
You probably should use the calculator linked below to find out if your 50 W rated (8 ohm, may be a little more into 4 ohm) Marantz is doing the uni-fi any favor. Even in the 8 ohm setting, it may be struggling, unless you sit quite close to the speakers and don't get near reference level.

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

For sensitivity, do not enter the specified 85 dB (try 81 instead), because the uni-fi center's specified impedance is 4 ohm nominal and 3.4 ohm minimum.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
If the amplifier is "ON", then it will be using power regardless of whether or not there is signal, and regardless of whether a speaker (load) is connected. The "amp idle" power is known as the "quiescent power", and this represents the voltage needed to "turn on" the semiconductor devices (i.e. the voltage required to get the electrons/holes into the conduction band of the semiconductor device")
The OP asked if it will still send power to the speaker terminals, not if it 'uses' power.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
@highfigh
Would Marantz really allow it to stress itself? If so, what is the purpose of having PRE's & SPKR outs. Marantz also does not have any user configurable "Output On/Off" settings. I am hoping that somewhere in the AVR logic, it see's no load on those SPKR terminals and doesn't expend any energy unless something gets connected. Also, wouldn't this be an issue for unused channels? i.e. Only using 5 vs 7,9,11, other channels are simply not connected.
To be honest, it just has to last a bit longer than the warranty, but they also bet that most people won't crank it to its highest level. Best case, the AVR has jumpers or a switch that disconnects the preamp from the power amp- that removes the input voltage to the power amp and if there's no voltage at the input, there's no voltage at the output and nothing happening in the circuit, aside from what it uses from the power supply as it's idling. As I wrote, you will measure voltage (assuming the power amp is still receiving input signal), but there's no current because there's no load.

If you select NO for those channels, you won't hear anything if you connect speakers.
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
The OP asked if it will still send power to the speaker terminals, not if it 'uses' power.
Right, what is the TITLE of this thread???

Furthermore, "sending" power is looking at it backwards as compared to convention. Convention says "the load draws power". So, if no load, there is no power draw, but that does not mean no power used (consumed).

Thread title copy/paste:
Does an Amp still send/use power to Speaker-Out's if using Pre-Out's?
 
TX428

TX428

Audiophyte
Thanks gang. @slipperybidness "the load" makes the most sense. No load, no power, makes sense now.

@PENG the Mc C52 is part of the system for my Turntable, it's superior DAC & headphone stage, Reel-to-Reel tape, and provides balanced output connections to the powered Navis'. The Home Theater Bypass or "Passthru" as they call it works perfect. I consider the AVR simply another source to the C52. I also have the ability to switch the subwoofers between the AVR-LFE and a second channel on the C52 for what essentially becomes 2.2 audio listening with AVR powered down.

The Audyssey phase error looks to be a bug. Phase is fine. There is audible "relay" click when it runs on the front's as if it is switching between SPKR & PRE. The 'more info' on the error brings up the SPKR terminal screen as well. I think because there is nothing connected to the Front L/R SPKR it simply is confused. It ultimately runs fine, the measurements look good, and it sounds great.

Thanks again everyone for the sanity check. :)
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Thanks gang. @slipperybidness "the load" makes the most sense. No load, no power, makes sense now.

@PENG the Mc C52 is part of the system for my Turntable, it's superior DAC & headphone stage, Reel-to-Reel tape, and provides balanced output connections to the powered Navis'. The Home Theater Bypass or "Passthru" as they call it works perfect. I consider the AVR simply another source to the C52. I also have the ability to switch the subwoofers between the AVR-LFE and a second channel on the C52 for what essentially becomes 2.2 audio listening with AVR powered down.

The Audyssey phase error looks to be a bug. Phase is fine. There is audible "relay" click when it runs on the front's as if it is switching between SPKR & PRE. The 'more info' on the error brings up the SPKR terminal screen as well. I think because there is nothing connected to the Front L/R SPKR it simply is confused. It ultimately runs fine, the measurements look good, and it sounds great.

Thanks again everyone for the sanity check. :)
It is a good thing that it is only a bug lol.. I am not familiar with those slim line AVRs, but for the SR series, there is no such thing as switching between preouts and speaker terminals as they are always on, with no settings to turn one on/off. The relay click you are hearing may be for something else, but again I don't know much about the slim line series.

I am not saying the HT bypass does not work perfectly, just saying that if may introduce enough delay for Audyssey to report such delay as phase error, that's all, and is only my educated guess. Anyway, glad that it works out for you. With the nice electronics you seem to have for two channel enjoyment, you may want to upgrade the speakers at some point though, those Andrew Jones speakers are nice, but your electronics can go much further with even better speakers.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Right, what is the TITLE of this thread???

Furthermore, "sending" power is looking at it backwards as compared to convention. Convention says "the load draws power". So, if no load, there is no power draw, but that does not mean no power used (consumed).

Thread title copy/paste:
Does an Amp still send/use power to Speaker-Out's if using Pre-Out's?
I read the title and I omitted '/use' to address 'send' and you commented on using power but I never wrote anything about 'no power used', just that there would be no current at/through/from the speaker terminals. I was referring to the amplifier section and you were referring to the power supply, right?
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I read the title and I omitted '/use' to address 'send' and you commented on using power but I never wrote anything about 'no power used', just that there would be no current at/through/from the speaker terminals. I was referring to the amplifier section and you were referring to the power supply, right?
I thought he referred to both ps and amp section as he did mention quiescent.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I thought he referred to both ps and amp section as he did mention quiescent.
Shady? He did, but more from the power supply standpoint. Current, as you know, quiescent or at WOT, comes from the power supply. I understood the OP's question to refer to the amplifier's output.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Shady? He did, but more from the power supply standpoint. Current, as you know, quiescent or at WOT, comes from the power supply. I understood the OP's question to refer to the amplifier's output.
I thought it was Slippery who mentioned it in post #5. You are right, everything come from the power supply, but quiescent current flows in part of the power amp cct., (example: base to emitter) that are in the "amp section". It just doesn't flow out of the amp output terminals to the load. So I think Slippery is technically correct, that the power amp section does consume power, however little, as long as it is turned on, even with no load connected.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I thought it was Slippery who mentioned it in post #5. You are right, everything come from the power supply, but quiescent current flows in part of the power amp cct., (example: base to emitter) that are in the "amp section". It just doesn't flow out of the amp output terminals to the load. So I think Slippery is technically correct, that the power amp section does consume power, however little, as long as it is turned on, even with no load connected.
DOH! Apologies to Slippery.
Right- bias current and any other minor current needed at idle or when not loaded.
 

Latest posts

newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top