Does a better power source mean better picture and sound?

[Vancouver]

Are products like the one below worth the money? Some people say it makes the video and audio quality better ...true or false?



www.richardgrayspowercompany.com

 

[Polkfan]

I'm inclined to say it sounds like snake oil.

 

[RDL]

Re:"Does a better power source mean better picture and sound?"

AC power quality has an effect on the sound and picture quality of all your components. Rarely does AC power arrive at your house at 120VAC. All equipment ( doesn't matter on make/brand ) is tested at 120VAC. Which means, if your amplifier isn't getting a full 120VAC (or close to it) it wont make the power rating that factory gave it. The same is true about your Video components. The proper voltage is needed to allow for maximum video signal strength from your DVD player to your TV. Most power conditioners do more then just regulate the voltage that your equipment sees. Most of the conditioners on the market clean or filter the AC line. Noise can be introduced at a number of points between the power company and your house. Sometime times its not the power companys fault either. Compnents with switching power supplys, or variacs can introduce noise in your own home. A good power conditioner will have an isolation circuit that stops any of this noise from passing through to your equipment.

The end results are clean powerful sound, higher dynamics, brighter contrast, and truer colors.

 

[Az B]

All equipment ( doesn't matter on make/brand ) is tested at 120VAC. Which means, if your amplifier isn't getting a full 120VAC (or close to it) it wont make the power rating that factory gave it.

You're ok to about 108v. Most equipment is designed to have a drop-out voltage (the voltage where the power supply regulators drop out of regulation) of between 90 to 100 volts. After that, you may experience some noticeable problems.

But generally, if you're getting 115v, your amp is fine.

 

[Vancouver]

its about 800-1000 for that particular model, which has got some good reviews if you check out there site. The sales guy at the store that sells them says its only worth getting if you have a system over $7,000. He swears if you have a plasma it will make the picture better. They looks pretty cool anyway.

 

[mtrycrafts]

its about 800-1000 for that particular model, which has got some good reviews if you check out there site. The sales guy at the store that sells them says its only worth getting if you have a system over $7,000. He swears if you have a plasma it will make the picture better. They looks pretty cool anyway.

Maybe the sales guy has a financial interest in this product?

 

[mtrycrafts]

Are products like the one below worth the money? Some people say it makes the video and audio quality better ...true or false?



www.richardgrayspowercompany.com

I want hard credible evidence as to its merits, not company hype and testimonials at their web site or reviews by rags with no bias controllled testing implemented.

There is none. Spend you money elsewhere, better room acoustics, speakers, and more music or movies.

 

[b_panther_g]

Although I do not have any hard evidence, I’m not willing to write power conditioners off as snake oil – at least not at this point.

My opinion is based on the work I’ve done using/testing/servicing laptops, PCs, and telecommunications equipment. In all cases, the ones with weak power supplies are more prone to problems or failure. It doesn’t matter if the equipment costs $300 or $300,000. Weak power supplies = less reliable machine.

Just my 2 cents.

Later,
B

 

[Mudcat]

Tripplite LCR2400

I have the above mentioned unit. My power coming into my system is feed through an ART surge suppressor (with volt and amp meters) so that I know what the voltage is and what current I'm drawing.

During brown outs I've watched the voltage drop to the mid 80s and current peak to 7 or 8 amps. The output voltage has remained a steady 120 (read via the volt meter on my Monster HTS 5100). So, it does its job with regard to power to the system. I cannot tell if there is noise reduction (that the job of the HTS 5100 - if it really works - otherwise it is just a fancy addition to my rack).


http://www.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2380

 

[Audioholics]

AC power quality has an effect on the sound and picture quality of all your components.
[snip]
The end results are clean powerful sound, higher dynamics, brighter contrast, and truer colors.

This should be easily measured if it is so obvious and I would think manufacturers of such units would publish their findings to show people the incredible difference, especially if it results in brighter contrast and truer colors and such. A simple meter connected to a plasma would show the difference immediately and would only take about 10 minutes to run a simple test.

If anyone can point us to some measurements that any of the manufacturers of these products have provided I'd be appreciative.

We'll provide some measurements in the future when we tackle this issue head on.

 

[miklorsmith]

Power conditioners come in many shapes, sizes, and budgets. I'd be hesitant to endorse/curse the lot of them with one stroke of the pen (sounds better than keyboard).

My general feeling is that the two primary factors of whether this will help your system (which is the only one that matters) are the quality of your existing power, and which product you choose.

If the salesman is confident his miracle/snakeoil will help you, convince him to let you borrow one. It's an expensive purchase and you should be able to assess its merits in your own setting. A competent salesman should understand this.

Richard Gray stuff is generally well reviewed (see ecoustics.com) although I've read that power conditioners oftentimes involve tradeoffs, such as noise reduction vs. reduced dynamics.

Don't spend the dough to cross your fingers.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Although I do not have any hard evidence, I’m not willing to write power conditioners off as snake oil – at least not at this point.

My opinion is based on the work I’ve done using/testing/servicing laptops, PCs, and telecommunications equipment. In all cases, the ones with weak power supplies are more prone to problems or failure. It doesn’t matter if the equipment costs $300 or $300,000. Weak power supplies = less reliable machine.

Just my 2 cents.

Later,
B

Maybe the claims are snake oil not the products as they still work
Don't confuse power conditioning needs for computers and audio components as being on an equal footing. They are not. Most audio components are designed with filtering circuits built in and with other than 120V +/- 0 v deviation needs in mind

 

[Polkfan]

Most audio components are designed with filtering circuits built in and with other than 120V +/- 0 v deviation needs in mind

Exacktly! I'd think this applies to TVs as well. Why don't I see huge transients in brightness on my TV? Especially if power fluctuations weren't compensated for by the equipment's internal circuitry. I have never noticed a drop in brightness on my set while watching. I am not using a line conditioner, but I am using a surge protector.

 

[Karp]

Power regulators can extend the life of your equipment, but I highly doubt that they will affect the quality of the output. There may be a few exceptions. If there are really bad power fluctuations it might be possible that a DLP (for instance) may dim slightly for a microsecond.

I use a UPS that I modified with larger caps and additional batteries. It doesn't give me better sound or picture quality. It does protect my equipment and keeps it running if the power goes out for a second (or a couple of minutes). All of my equipment except the subwoofer are attached to it. The sub and UPS are plugged into a surge suppressor for added protection. As long as I don't have the receiver on (or shut it off within a minute or two), it also keeps the digital cable box from loosing the channel guide info and the VCR from loosing it's settings (don't have a DVR yet).

There are two types of UPS's though. The cheaper ones kick into battery mode if the power drops or shuts off. The better ones such as mine use household current to power the batteries. The batteries then supply regulated current (through a DC to AC converter) to the equipment, which gives nearly perfect 120 volts without fluctuations. There are no power regulators that can give that kind of even voltage and protection for 10X the price.

 

[MDS]

The sub and UPS are plugged into a surge suppressor for added protection.

Have you read the manual for your UPS? A UPS should be plugged directly into the wall. It is ok to plug a surge protector into the UPS, but not the other way around.

 

[Leprkon]

bad electrons

I can tell you the Air Force uses much less expensive support for the automated test equipment we use to inspect jet engine parts.

The incoming electrical voltage has always been a problem for us. In an industrial building with massive power centers located everywhere, we still see spikes from 98 to 160 volts. You can bet the same is in your home, where two or three rooms will be on the same circuit, and your wife turning on her blow dryer makes Sportscenter dance like it was Terrell Owens.

We solved the solution by doing exactly what Karp did. We use AC in, battery out, UPS's. The UPS will absorb as much as a surge protector to keep your equipment safer, and gives you time to turn off your system properly instead of a hard shut down in a brownout or blackout (assuming you were not in the dark already and couldn't hear the UPS beeping over whatever you had going on the system). In most cases, the UPS will give you a number of outlets to work with.

I would personally recommend one small one (a 200 watt unit for a computer that sells for less than forty bucks will work just fine) for the DVD player and a larger one for the rest of your components (unless you have a receiver with digial amplifiers, which could go with the DVD player). Let each unit charge overnight before you use it.

It works for us on million dollar machines that test parts worth eighty grand each. Sometimes, even the government doesn't fall for snake oil.

 

[mtrycrafts]

The incoming electrical voltage has always been a problem for us. In an industrial building with massive power centers located everywhere, we still see spikes from 98 to 160 volts. You can bet the same is in your home, where two or three rooms will be on the same circuit, and your wife turning on her blow dryer makes Sportscenter dance like it was Terrell Owens.

Are you equating that industrial usage to what is happening in your residential place when a few 150watt bulbs are on, or a 1000watt hair dryer is turned on? Easy to test though, plug in a voltmeter and turn on that hair dryer and see.

W The UPS will absorb as much as a surge protector to keep your equipment safer, and gives you time to turn off your system properly instead of a hard shut down in a brownout or blackout (assuming you were not in the dark already and couldn't hear the UPS beeping over whatever you had going on the system). In most cases, the UPS will give you a number of outlets to work with.

UPS has a purpose for some with frequent brownouts or critical equipment and data loss possibility.

 

[Leprkon]

Are you equating that industrial usage to what is happening in your residential place when a few 150watt bulbs are on, or a 1000watt hair dryer is turned on? Easy to test though, plug in a voltmeter and turn on that hair dryer and see.

I'm sorry. What was I thinking ?? You are right.

In our industrial application, all the high-draw and resistance applications (like say 2200 degree high vacuum furnaces and electrical welders) are on isolated fuse boxes, busbars, power cabinets and main lines all the way back to the base transformer station. We have a nominal electrical use in the area of a million dollars a month. Every system is certified to NFPA 70 (the national electrical code) to be no more than 70 % of the rated electical breaker box at full draw. Every system drawing more than 20 amps has a dedicated ground that is a minimum of 1/2 inch in diameter sunk three feet or more below concrete level. All of this, and there are still significant voltage variations. Current supply will usually remain constant, but voltage can change constantly.

Let's compare that to the local home with its 150 (or maybe) 200 amp service. The entire system is grounded at one point (often the water piping system, as noted in another cheerful thread on this site). Let's start with the 7 or 8 items plugged in at the receptacle for the HT system itself, hopefully not already kicking the breaker off at the rated 20 amps. We'll assume there is no power conditioning at the hair dryer, since a even GFCI receptacle is looking for current, not voltage. We will assume the bathroom is on a different circuit breaker than the living room. We will further assume the main breaker box probably has no line conditioning and thet various circuits are merely tree-branched at the main box, as that meets normal city "code". That leaves the hair dryer, kitchen stove, three ceiling fans, icemaker, and the air conditioner all isolated from the HT system by a couple of on-line breakers and about 50 feet of pure copper wire.

Do you have dedicated ground poles for your HT system, Mtry ? Any isolation transformers scattered around the house ? Maybe you're just running off your own personal generator (though that only eliminates problems on the main line, not inside the house).

If I'm having problems, you can bet you are too.

A voltmeter will be of only marginal help in this situation. A single snapshot is time is hardly an effective measurement. You would need a 24 hour, or even better, week-long voltage recorder to accurately represent the varying uses of electrical power within your house (suppose your clothes dryer, ice machine, and hair dryer were all on for even a short period of time), block, neighborhood, weather conditions (700,000 air conditioners all on at once in Dallas in August MIGHT cause just a little variation) and city.

If you are in an area with unpredictable electrical power compunded by varying internal use, and want a clean electrical feed, there is simply not a more cost-effective method than a battery-out UPS.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Do you have dedicated ground poles for your HT system, Mtry ? Any isolation transformers scattered around the house ? Maybe you're just running off your own personal generator (though that only eliminates problems on the main line, not inside the house).

If I'm having problems, you can bet you are too.

A voltmeter will be of only marginal help in this situation. A single snapshot is time is hardly an effective measurement. You would need a 24 hour, or even better, week-long voltage recorder to accurately represent the varying uses of electrical power within your house (suppose your clothes dryer, ice machine, and hair dryer were all on for even a short period of time), block, neighborhood, weather conditions (700,000 air conditioners all on at once in Dallas in August MIGHT cause just a little variation) and city.

If you are in an area with unpredictable electrical power compunded by varying internal use, and want a clean electrical feed, there is simply not a more cost-effective method than a battery-out UPS.

If I remember correctly, you are the one claiming that huge voltage swings, right? Did you measure it? How long did it take you to measure it? Does it happen when you play yout system, when the airconditioning switches on, when? Or, you are just speculating.

Oh. I don't have problems with my line voltage.

 

[Leprkon]

If you really want the gory details:

All automated test equipment since the day they opened the base has been on dedicated lines direct from the base power distribution center.

We studied voltage, amperage, temperature, and even vibration from aircraft lift-offs and EMI from radio messages in an attempt to resolve system problems. We recorded voltages for four two-week periods, twenty-four hours a day, over a six month timeframe (October to April) with a total external temperature range of 103 degrees down to 3 degrees (minus 46, if you count wind chill).

System variations were found to be basically independant of internal and external temperature, other weather conditions excluding tornados and ice storms, amperage (other than recovery form a brown-out or black-out), and aircraft takeoff/radio communication (even AWACS going hot on the mushroom).

We did notice significant variation in voltage. Though mostly otherwise random, we were able to pinpoint certain repeatable variations at shift starts, breaks, lunches, and occasionally, very near COB for the office types, usually at the end of a month but very noticeable at the end of a fiscal quarter.

It appears the power draw of 300 arc welders and 20 some odd high temperature vacuum furnaces were incapable of what 35 acres of lighting and radios shutting down so people could take naps could do... make power spikes all the way back to the main distribution (and possibly even further). It also appears that several hundred laser printers kicking out those last minute reports for the big bosses are a major drain.

This is a situation there really isn't any way to regulate by policy. We initially tried using power conditioners at about ten grand a pop, but even those units are designed to regulate current, not voltage. For less than half that price, we were able to install power in, battery out UPS's of the type described by Karp. Our voltage variations dropped to 110 plus or minus 2. We had a battery go bad (it was immediately replaced under warranty by APC) that warned us when it dropped to 107 volts (ie 3 % variation).

This was good enough for me. I have a Monster power converter, but I went out and bought UPS's for my main and bedroom HT systems to go with the one I already had on my computer. The power is clean. There are a number of plugs available on each unit. It has much better lightning resistance than a mere power strip (and is insured for $ 25,000 against each incident) and provides me the opportunity to properly shut down in a black-out.

It works for me and the Air Force. If you have a better idea, I'm sure taxpayers everywhere (along with the guy who started this thread) will love to hear it.